Roberval and Saguenay... First train to Ha! Ha! and today

[Miningman]

Roberval & Saguenay 

by R.L.Kennedy

Alcan plant at Port Alfred, Quebec. September 12, 2003 Renaud Chodkowski

Aerial view of Rio Tinto facility Port Alfred, M.18.25 Arpa Sub. August 13, 2016 

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The Roberval and Saguenay Railway Company is owned by Rio Tinto Alcan (previously Alcan Aluminium Ltd.) to serve its four smelters, alumina refinery, petroleum coke calcining plant and port, as well as other primarily forestry-based industries including the newsprint mill in Alma built by the Price Bros. in the 1920's and the mill in Kenogami in the Saguenay region. There are two isolated subdivision; the mainline 19 mile ARPA Subdivision between Port Alfred and Arvida, and the 10 mile Alma Subdivision between Saguenay Power and Alma. The R&S was granted running rights over the CN between Saguenay Power and Arvida in the fall of 1975. In the mid-1990's this agreement was changed. R&S gave up running rights in turn for switching CN's customers in Arvida and the CN moves cars between Arvida and Saguenay Power (at St. Bruno) once a day in each direction. Interchange is performed at Saguenay Power and Arvida. R&S running rights now are limited to light engine moves to get units assigned to the Alma Sub. to the Arvida shops. 

The Roberval and Saguenay had its beginnings with the Quebec incorporation in 1908 of the most unusually named Ha! Ha! Bay Railway to build from Jonquieres to Bagotville on Ha! Ha! Bay, with branches to Chicoutimi Pulp Company mills, to Lake Kenogami and St.Alexis. The R&S itself was incorporated in Quebec in 1911 to build from Roberval on the Quebec and Lake St. John Ry. around Lake St. John to rejoin the Quebec & Lake St.John at Chicoutimi and also at St.Bruno via a branch. It bought the Ha! Ha! Bay June 28, 1914.

Ha! Ha! Bay 1 with first passenger train which arrived at Le Vieux Depot (The Old Station)
in Bagotville in December 1910. Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

[Fr.Al]

I thought it was St. Louis de Ha! Ha! I do remember seeing something on a map.

[Miningman]

That's a different place. Ha Ha refers to 'impasse' or ' end of the line' in French. 

In addition to the below list there is also a Ha Ha Bay in Newfoundland at the very Northern tip near Labrador. 

The Commission de toponymie du Québec asserts that the parish's name refers to nearby Lake Témiscouata, the sense of haha here being an archaic French word for an impasse;^[6] see Ha-ha. The Louis may refer to Louis Marquis, one of the first colonists of the region, or Louis-Antoine Proulx, vicar of Rivière-du-Loup, or perhaps the abbot Louis-Nicolas Bernier.^[1]Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha! is the only town in the world with two exclamation points in its name.^[6]

A Canada Post sign in Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!

 

Similarly named places in QuebecEdit

• Baie des Ha! Ha! (a bay on the Saguenay River in the Saguenay–Lac-Saint-Jean region)^[7]
• Baie des Ha! Ha! (a bay on the Saint Lawrence River in the Côte-Nord region
• Rivière Ha! Ha! (a river in Saguenay–Lac-Saint-Jean)^[9]

 

See alsoEdit

• List of parish municipalities in Quebec
• Westward Ho!, a village in Devon, England
• Hamilton!, Ohio, United States, city that briefly added an exclamation point to its name
• Est! Est!! Est!!! di Montefiascone

Notice in the old picture the locomotive and coaches are lettered for Ha! Ha! Bay. Anyone out there with Ha! Ha! Bay Rwy painted up on their model railroad equipment? That would raise some questions requiring the need for some explaining to onlookers. 

Also note the chap hanging off the smaller and the last coach. Wonder if his name is Fred?... Ha! Ha! 

[Penny Trains]

Eye yi yi! 

[Miningman]

Here is a stunning picture of what it looks like today 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/RS/aerial_roundhouse.jpg

 

 

[Miningman]

Finally found a good picture of the Baie Des Ha! Ha! RR and locomotive #1

 

 Roberval - Saguenay 

Roster electric and steam 

Predecessor Ha! Ha! Bay 1 a 2-4-2T Tractive effort 13,740 lbs. MLW 3/1910
New cost $7,000 Became Roberval Saguenay 1. 
Sold in 7/1940 to Aluminum Company of Canada.

Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

[Flintlock76]

Good looking tank locomotive!  I wonder what ever happened to it?

Well, OK, I can guess  what happened to it.  But maybe it didn't!

[Miningman]

It was sold to the Aluminum Company of Canada in 1940 but then ??.. have to assume it was scrapped at some point, probably sometime after it worked heavily in the war effort. 

The R&S had several tank locomotives and this one, #15 was saved and is on display today.

Note the added on wooden sided tender. Actually I like the original older version appearance better.

15 0-4-0T (acq. 1/1928 ex Quebec Development Co.104) Built as Alma & Jonquiere 1 
t.e. 14,400 MLW 64710 1923 Arvida 1938 

15 0-4-2T (built as 0-4-0T see above) Port Alfred. Sold 1951 to Alcan, Chute du Diable. 
Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

15 preserved at old pulp mill museum in Chicoutimi. 7/16/2011 Marc G. Vallieres

 

 

[Miningman]

Mike chips in with great historical stuff on the Ha! Ha! Bay and it's Railroad 

https://archive.org/details/quebeclakestjohn00cham_1/page/38

https://ia802602.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/10/items/niagaratoseaflee00rich/niagaratoseaflee00rich_jp2.zip&file=niagaratoseaflee00rich_jp2/niagaratoseaflee00rich_0147.jp2&scale=2&rotate=0

 

 

https://archive.org/details/niagaratoseaflee00rich

[Flintlock76]

Glad to see #15's still around.  I was puzzling over what looked to be extra tanks built onto the saddle tank, that is, wondering what they were for since the original saddle tank is still in place.

Then it hit me.  Ballast?  It is a 0-4-0 after all and may have needed the extra weight on the drivers depending on what kind of switching they wanted it to do.

And that is one heckuva sand dome it's got!

[MidlandMike]

Those high saddle tanks look like they realy limit forward visibility.

[Overmod]

Flintlock76

I was puzzling over what looked to be extra tanks built onto the saddle tank, that is, wondering what they were for since the original saddle tank is still in place.

Very likely related to the extended bunkerage ... and look at what kind of company the 'revised' version was working for.

I think of the same considerations for the N&W M2 Automatic, for cognate reasons.  The locomotive was intended to operate far away from fixed water and fuel supply, perhaps for an extended period; what you see may be an attempt to get added fuel and water together.  

One great perceived advantage of early diesels in switching was their ability to run long periods of time, including idling, without having to drop work and go 'be serviced' with either fuel or water.  The same would apply to contracting or construction service, particularly 'out in the woods'.  Even if there's a reasonably adjacent source of clean water (which there usually is, in that region of Quebec) it would take time to go there, drop a hose, arrange pumping, etc. 

It looks to me as if the tank was extended before the additional frame lengthening and wheel relocation took place.  That might well have been to increase average adhesion in the 'original service' or to better balance the engine.

[Miningman]

Other steam on the R&S. Would have to say they kept their locomotives pretty darn good looking for an Industrial line.

#9 and #10

9 acq. 1919 (ex P&LE) Cyl. 18" x 24" Drv. 50" Pittsburg Locomotive and Car Works 1899
Arvida c.1940 Bill Thomson Collection 

4-6-0 10 (acq. 7/1920 ex T&NO 105) Cyl. 19" x 24" Drv. 56" Press. 180 t.e. 23,760 CLC 689 3/1906
Acquired from Canadian Equipment Co. (D) looking brand new at Bagotville shop. Retired 1932.
Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

#12

12 0-6-0 acq. 3/1926 ex Alton and Southern (Alcoa-owned) Alco Cooke 1902 Scrapped 3/1953 
Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

#13 and #14 

13 Arvida circa 1940 Bill Thomson Collection 

14 Mogul 2-6-0 MLW 67428 5/1926 
Sold to Alma and Jonquières in 1941 
Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

 

#16

16 looking pretty nice at Arvida. CLC #1923 6/1937 
Cyl. 23x30 Drv. 57" 200# 47300 t.e. 201 tons working order. 
Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

#17

17 on the table at Arvida. CLC #1959 1/1940 Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

# 6 Electric but rebuilt into a Diesel #8

Roberval-Saguenay 6. Baldwin-Westinghouse built in 1912. Rebuilt as diesel-electric 8 (see below).

A much rebuilt shop switcher that was first an electric as number 6, then in 1941 a homemade rebuild diesel-electric
with wheel arrangement of 1A-1A. It was rebuilt in 1950 as a battery-electric shop switcher. 
Note the stencilled weight of 73450 (37 tons) B-W #38411 9/1912 
Arvida, Que. 8/27/1971 David M. More

 

[Jones1945]

Miningman

It was sold to the Aluminum Company of Canada in 1940 but then ??.. have to assume it was scrapped at some point, probably sometime after it worked heavily in the war effort. 

The R&S had several tank locomotives and this one, #15 was saved and is on display today.

Note the added on wooden sided tender. Actually I like the original older version appearance better.

15 0-4-0T (acq. 1/1928 ex Quebec Development Co.104) Built as Alma & Jonquiere 1 
t.e. 14,400 MLW 64710 1923 Arvida 1938 

15 0-4-2T (built as 0-4-0T see above) Port Alfred. Sold 1951 to Alcan, Chute du Diable. 
Courtesy of Rio Tinto Alcan, Ian Stronach Collection

15 preserved at old pulp mill museum in Chicoutimi. 7/16/2011 Marc G. Vallieres 

 

I think #15 is painted in black nowadays. By the way, the Old Chicoutimi Pulp Mill looks like an interesting place to visit!

[M636C]

I think #15 is painted in black nowadays. By the way, the Old Chicoutimi Pulp Mill looks like an interesting place to visit!

I see it has lost the rectangular "tank extensions" as well.

Peter

[Miningman]

Better in black and if the 'extensions' are gone better yet. Great looking place, interesting indeed, a fantasyland. 

Thank you Jonesy!

[Miningman]

Another hidden gem in Quebec. Now I knew about #49 at Exporail and #47 in Scranton but I did not know about #46!

Suburban 4-6-4F

46 (acq. 8/2002) with display train of CP equipment! 401676 40' box car, 415043 ex 400213 tank car and 434065 van. 
Note: 46 long displayed in front of Canadian Steel (later, Quebec Steel Products) in Longueuil. 
Originally preserved by H. J. O'Connell, Ltd. Contractor, Dorval.
Former QCR Valley Junction. August 13/2017 

49 one of only six such Forney type tank engines especially built for GTR's Montreal suburban (commuter) service.
Montreal 3/29/1958 Joseph Testagrose collection 

Preserved indoors at Exporail. August 2003 Pierre Lacombe