I propose the following:
You certainly hit all the high points David, that's the 611 story all right, concise and to the point.
The only thing left out is with the end of Norfolk-Southern's 21st Century Steam program 611 is now in Roanoke "All dressed up with no place to go!"
On the other hand, might as well leave that part out. Why depress everyone?
Correction!
That would be "J"...NOT...J1!During WWII, six locos, 605-610, were built unstreamlined (and other factors) due to war retrictions. These engines were classed as "J1". When these six locos were streamlined and updated they were reclassed as "J", dropping the "1".When engines 611-613 were built, they also continued the "J" Class.
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Thanks. Iwill edit both the post and my submittal. I should have remembered that!
Should I add that they were occasionally used in fast freight service?
daveklepper Should I add that they were occasionally used in fast freight service?
Yes, and I would add one or two lines about how the design was well suited to this job, something that could not be said of most other true 110-mph-capable steam locomotives (only the 3765/3776/rebuilt 2900s at ATSF come to mind in this category)
Oh yeah, N&W used Class J's on freight service toward the end, but folks here in Virginia considered it a disgraceful insult to the type!
Kind of like putting Seabiscuit or Man-O-War on the front of a milk wagon!
There's certain things with thoroughbreds you just don't do!
At least they got to keep their style, unlike the NYC Century Hudsons:
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
A Class J shoving a pulpwood flat. Groannnnnnn.....
And then there's pictures of Geeps pulling "The Cavalier", "The Pocahontas", "The Powhatan Arrow," and those trains are not the same anymore.
They're just NOT the same!
Wayne, a correction: cara for carrying pulpwood do not have flat beds--the bed slopes toward the centerline to make it easier to keep the load stable.
I have seen many being loaded--and I have ridden a couple of empty woodracks.
Johnny
OK Johnny, I stand corrected. But it STILL isn't right!
It's like a crime against nature!
Yes, Wayne, it's comparable to putting a princess to work as a scullery maid.
Hey folks, remember what I said about the N&W's named trains not being the same without a Class J on the head-end? Have a look at this...
www.retroweb.com/lynchburg/rails/arrow_lynus_59.jpg
See what I mean?
At least they're in Tuscan red and they're clean.
Flintlock76There's certain things with thoroughbreds you just don't do!
But the right metaphor for a class J isn't a Thoroughbred -- that breed of flighty, easily-damaged horse applies more aptly to something like a T1 or, as Staufer used it, one of the NYC Hudsons. (Or perhaps the Niagara we were discussing a few days ago... )
The Class J is more like Jay-Eye-See, or a good Morgan: a robust and competent design that just happens to be able to make remarkable dash speed (and sustain it remarkably well) with drivers that were certainly well-suited to effective fast freight.
Now, granted, you wouldn't want to see Jay-Eye-See shackled uncurried and back-end-first to a broken-down wagon. But at least he could move it effectively and with a minimum of fuss and drama -- even when he wasn't moving at high speed in a glamorous context.
Oh, and the Redbirds wore metalflake paint. And were passenger geared. So they are actually part of this discussion, too, in a different sense. They, too, could run remarkably fast and the next day get down low with tonnage effectively. That they aren't as beautiful isn't their fault.
Thanks! And can the Powhatan Arrow pulled by GP-9 (and I confess that I actually had some input on the load-regulator improvement GP-7 to GP-9) still be considered a streamliner?
For that matter, what about a 20th Century pulled by a Niagra?
Or the Broadway by double-headed K4s?
Hey Overmod! When I called the Class J's "thoroughbreds" I was thinking of what some unknown person with the soul of a poet posted on the side of 611's cab when the N-S steam program was cancelled in 1994. It was there for the return run to Roanoke, and maybe you remember it?
"I am the Thoroughbread of Steam, born to run, born to be free!
Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do!"
I don't know about everyone else, but I choked up when I read that. Hell, I choke up thinking about it now.
"I am the Thoroughbred of Steam, born to run, born to be free!
I remember being tickled by that good Episcopalian use of Scripture -- in context! (But of course the passion means far less without a resurrection -- which we have recently enjoyed!)
And we will yet see her run, if not exactly with full freedom, again. Of that I am quite certain even if the future is (as zardoz said) often beyond a singularity.
davekleppercan the Powhatan Arrow pulled by GP-9... still be considered a streamliner?
You know, funny thing is I've often encountered this question over in the toy train universe. Writing from a modern perspective, say 1990 to the present day, toy train historians often question the logic of Lionel placing any steam locomotive at the head of a set containing streamlined passenger cars. Yet they can accept the use of a GP-7 or 9 pulling those same cars as if it's the most natural thing in the universe. True, GP stands for general purpose, but if you're out to create a sleek train set with a high price tag, why go with a boxy, utilitarian unit most often seen pulling freight?
I don't claim to understand Lionel's logic 100%. I mean, why put a Berkshire at the head of a work train when you could use a standard freight formula and why release the 746 N&W J in 1957 and NOT use the streamlined cars you produce? But a lot of people seem to think it would be odd to see that J pulling the extruded aluminum cars. Go figure.
Well, I look at it this way...
If it's got modern big steam on the head-end and it's got the appropriate cars, it's a streamliner.
If it's got an E, an appropriate F, or PA or even FA diesel on it, and with those self-same appropriate cars, it's a streamliner.
Same if it's got the appropriate passenger electrics, BUT...
If it's got a Geep or any other kind of road-switcher then it's just another train.
And Becky's right, none of us O-gaugers can figure out what got into Lionel in the late post-war era!
And I HAVE seen a Class J pulling "extruded aluminum cars!" OK, they were 12" to the foot scale and part of Mighty 611's excursion consist, but you know what I mean!
Well they WERE silver colored...
Exactly! Why did it take till the 80's to get tuscan versions (models) of the aluminum cars that had been around since the early 50's? The only possible answer must be the same one that we've been dealing with for millenia: moolah.
Or just plain lack of imagination or they ran out of creative steam. It happens.
daveklepper Thanks! And can the Powhatan Arrow pulled by GP-9 (and I confess that I actually had some input on the load-regulator improvement GP-7 to GP-9) still be considered a streamliner? For that matter, what about a 20th Century pulled by a Niagra? Or the Broadway by double-headed K4s?
I always think about this question.
If the engine was not a streamlined one, like the Fleet of Modernism trains of PRR before the arrival of 50 T1s in 1945, many "Streamliner" and named train was powered by unstreamlined K4s outside the electrified territory; they were a streamliner when they were hauling by GG1 within the electrified territory but all eastbound "streamliner" was not a complete streamliner until they reached Harrisburg. Pennsy called them streamliner in advisement anyway.
On the other hand, comparing the 20th Century Limited of 1938 and the Century behind a Niagara, I don't consider the latter a streamliner as well. The former had an engine carrying livery and streamlining which match the entire streamlined consist behind them. We can find a lot of similar case from different railroads history.
But I guess the partons in the 1940s probably didn't really mind or care. If not, I believe NYCentral would have kept the streamlined shrouding a bit longer. ( IIRC, all Dreyfuss Hudsons, including that 2 built for the Empire State Express were de-streamlined in the mid-1940s.)
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
What was true years ago is true now. The average passenger train rider doesn't care what the locomotive looks like as long as it gets the train where it's supposed to be in a timely manner.
Look at the current "Genesis" locomotives pulling Amtrak trains. Many railfains consider them creepy looking, if not downright ugly, but the riders could care less.
Although, I'd suspect back in the 40's and 50's many train riders were a little depressed at the transition from steam to diesel. The "Big Show" just wasn't the same afterward.
Flintlock76 What was true years ago is true now. The average passenger train rider doesn't care what the locomotive looks like as long as it gets the train where it's supposed to be in a timely manner. Look at the current "Genesis" locomotives pulling Amtrak trains. Many railfains consider them creepy looking, if not downright ugly, but the riders could care less. Although, I'd suspect back in the 40's and 50's many train riders were a little depressed at the transition from steam to diesel. The "Big Show" just wasn't the same afterward.
I agree with you that average passenger who is not a railfan probably never give any attention to the engine of their train. Streamliner or not, the general public considers them a transportation machine which takes them to where they want to go.
Regarding the "Genesis" locomotives... I am glad to know that I am not the only one think that they don't have an appealing appearance, just like many "modern" engine from different countries. It is just my personal preference, no offense to people who love them!
People probably feel excited about their new cars and travel by air since the mid-1940s. It is human nature to love the new and forget the old. But I agree with you that some people in that era did prefer steam to diesel; it is reflected in the result of a survey conducted by SP.
Overmod But the right metaphor for a class J isn't a Thoroughbred -- that breed of flighty, easily-damaged horse applies more aptly to something like a T1 or, as Staufer used it, one of the NYC Hudsons. (Or perhaps the Niagara we were discussing a few days ago... )
Base on the operating data provided from the book "Know Thy Niagras" by Thomas R. Gerbracht, you can rest assured that putting NYCentral Niagara on the list is consistent with the historical fact.
Just a reminder. I assume extruded aluminum Lionels are meant to represent stainless-steel cars or stainless-steel sheathed cars.
Whixh were regularly behind Js between Bristol and Monroe.
Absolutely David, those Lionel extruded aluminum cars were supposed to replicate the stainless steel streamliner cars.
Interestingly, those aluminum cars didn't originate with Lionel. An outfit called American Model Toys, later American Model Trains, beat Lionel to the punch by bringing out aluminum streamline cars in 1948, but it didn't take Lionel long to react.
OK, off topic, but toy trains can be a fascinating study when you get into them.
Indoubitably!
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