Niagara St. Catherines and Toronto

[Miningman]

623 at very end of track about to return northward. Note both poles are up until motorman pulls front one down. 

623 at end of run in Thorold. Note both poles up as direction of car is changed. 
5/30/1958 Paul McGrane Collection

Radial car 623 (1956 ex M&SC 623, 1939 nee WE&LS 503) crossing a diamond. Ottawa Car 1930

Classic wooden interurban car 130 (Preston Car & Coach 1914) crossing trestle in a most picturesque scene near Welland. 
7/4/1953 Wm.Janssen 

NOTE: This car was preserved at Rail City, a very early tourist railway in New York state. 
Unfortunately it deteriorated from neglect and was scrapped. No NS&T equipment exists. 

Combine 132 (64 seats 50' 0" 38-tons Preston 1914) trails another interurban car on 
Victoria Ave. at Roberts St. in Niagara Falls. 7/07/1946 Jim Shuman

Interurban car 83 (NS&T 1925) on the photogenic Martindale Trestle, Port Dalhousie line.
7/1958 Eugene Van Dusen

Express car 82 (NS&T 1925) converted 1956 from coach. 
Welland Avenue Yard, St.Catharines, Ontario. 8/16/1956 Eugene Van Dusen

NS&T 41 acq. 1927 (ex Cleveland, Painesville & Ashtabula 60) Express car in 
Welland Avenue Yard, St.Catharines, Ontario. 8/16/1956 Eugene Van Dusen
Note the single red flag marker, a NS&T standard practice. 

NS&T 63 southbound to Port Colborne acq. 1915 (ex London & Lake Erie) 54 seats 50'7" 30-ton Niles 1912 
Swing bridge Welland Canal #1 and #2. 7/07/1946 Jim Shuman/Joseph Testagrose

Looking out from 130 at diamond at Mileage 13.90 Welland Division near Dainsville
. A Wabash F7 powered freight waits out of sight on CNR Cayuga Sub. (see below) 

Two semaphore blades displayed at stop signal. White triangle sign warns of railway crossing at grade ahead. 

Stopping at Welland meeting with a taxicab. Note the telephone booth and newspaper box.

Motorman raises pole at end of the run preparing for return trip. Red flag already put up. Scenic location is Thorold station at south end of town where connection is made with CNT buses to Merritton and St.Catharines.

18 switching in Niagara Street Yard St.Catharines. Lots of wires! 
10-1-1954 Eugene Van Dusen/Joseph Testagrose Collection 
Note the yellow 10 mph speed restriction sign for the level crossing.

And, of course .......The End of the Wire as its all gone

CN 7168 running 10 mph down Ontario Street to Merritton. 5/18/1976 A.W.Mooney 
SW8 800 hp GMD A198 6/1951

 

[NDG]

FWIW.

 

Canadian Locomotive Company of Kingston, Ontario did NOT construct many Electric Locomotives.

 

NStC&T 21 is one they did.

 

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/nst21a.jpg

 

Thank You.

[Firelock76]

Great shots, loved 'em all, but especially the first one, THAT grabbed my attention right away.

That trolley could be a battleship if it tried just a little harder.  It looks formidable.

Hey, there's a name for you, HMCS Formidable. 

[Miningman]

Firelock-- Agree 100%. It does have a very tough look and has a Dreadnaught look to it, either that or possibly Science Fiction. 

[Miningman]

It was quite an extensive system that went to many communities in the area and served an industrial base as well and interchange. Power from mighty Niagara Falls, hydro electric, how clean can you get. Virtually cost free in the day until politics changed it all. Love those express cars. So mail, parcels, documents, light shipments all getting to where it needs to be, consistently on schedule several times a day, day in day out. People getting around just fine for shopping or appoitments or the start of a larger journey. Seems like an idyllic world. I remember it very very clearly and admired the electrics. It's a shame, it all worked so well. 

So now we have the industry gone, people dress like slobs, welfare, drugs, casinos, foul language, fast food and obesity. UPS and Purolater delivery trucks zippin' around, the QEW highway is so busy it's white knuckled insanity.  Progress. 

[SD70Dude]

My grandmother grew up in Welland and has many fond memories of riding the 'streetcars', as she calls them.  Thanks for posting, I will be sure to show her these photos next time I visit.

A couple segments of the NSC&T survive as industrial spurs and are operated by the Trillium Railway, but no street running remains.  The last section, in Thorold, shut down about 10 years ago due to damage to the bridge over CN's Grimsby Sub.  The bridge was never repaired, and has since been removed.  The sole customer on that spur (a paper mill) switched to trucks.

Video from 2005, a few years before train operations on the Thorold spur ended:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cTuQmGajS9o

[NDG]

FYI.

 

Trillium Roster.

 

http://www.trilliumrailway.com/roster.php

 

Thank You.

[Miningman]

NDG--Thanks for that Roster.

Did you notice in the pictures I posted behind Express car #41 is a Montreal & Southern Counties car. Did they purchase that for their own use or parts or someone is storing it there? Picture is 1956. 

 

[NDG]

Re MSC car photo.

 

MSC dewired in 1956 and used H-10-64 OP S/G power on the passenger trains.

 

Some of the modern cars, as shown went to the NStC&T.

 

Here is one that did not.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ikLYdi3Hdk0/UZFPPUtHO4I/AAAAAAAAYLc/HHHbNPw2T3E/s640/D_090_Streetcar_at_Empire.jpg

 

http://theeco-senior.blogspot.com/2013/05/montreal-southern-counties-railway.html

 

The electric equipment was  moved around as required.

 

http://www.trainweb.org/elso/or.htm

 

Much can be found using Google, as here.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=montreal+and+southern+counties&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuqNK81YfdAhVGv48KHTZLB5cQ_AUICygC&biw=1024&bih=667

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/61779764@N00/sets/72157623291351202/

 

As those cars were quite new, comparatively speaking, I presume it had just arrived and had yet not been repainted.

 

 

Thank You.

[Jones1945]

NDG

Re MSC car photo.

 

MSC dewired in 1956 and used H-10-64 OP S/G power on the passenger trains.

 

Some of the modern cars, as shown went to the NStC&T.

 

Here is one that did not.

 

http://theeco-senior.blogspot.com/2013/05/montreal-southern-counties-railway.html

 

 

Those are some nice seats with deep cushions. Face to face seating arrangement is not loved by everyone though, but I heard this design is a trick for easier management of the compartment.

[Firelock76]

I just noticed something about the car in photo 13, the one and Thorold station.  With those arches over the windows it has a look very similar to the Erie Rairoad's Stillwell passenger coaches.  Interesting.

Those Erie Stillwells lasted beyond the life of the Erie itself.  They hung around in New Jersey commuter service into the early 1970's, and I believe kept their Erie markings right to the end.

Here's one for everyone's perusal, although not in the best of condition.

http://www.rgvrrm.org/about/railroad/erie2328/

At least it hasn't been cut up for rebar.

[Miningman]

The Erie had over 400 of them. Did the arch windows have something to do with structural strength or was it just a cosmetic feature? 

Several lasted well into the Penn Central era and indeed were never repainted!

Old posting by David Klepper re Stillwells

Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:17 AM

The Chicago and Eastern Indiana had Stillwell coaches identacle to the Erie's for commuter service.   As noted, the Hudson and Manhattan (now PATH)  original cars were Stillwells.   The cars for the joint PRR-H&M service to Newark were designed by Gibbs, however.   Stillwell also designed the original BMT "steels" or "B-Types."   Actually, A's B's, BX.s, and BT's.   Also the New York Westchester and Boston cars.   Also the steel cars for the London and Port Stanley.    There may be others.   All were distinguished by lightweight and strenth in the days before stainless and Budd.

 

[Firelock76]

Miningman, that's a very good question!  I had no idea, so I hit the books over this one, but couldn't find an answer.

Long story short, I looked up the long-gone New York, Westchester, and Boston Railway, an interurban line who (I believe) were the first to use Stillwell coaches and found this.  Probably more than anyone wants to know about Stillwells!

https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/New_Steel_Cars_for_the_New_York,_Westchester,_and_Boston_Railway_(1912)

What I gather from the 1912 article is the arches are there as a weight-saving measure which doesn't detract from the structural strength of the side framing. 

Interesting.  And they do add to the esthetic appeal of the car, to me at least.

 

 

[Miningman]

Now that is some top notch information Firelock. Really interesting read and the photos are outstanding. An arch structure has different load characteristics than a straight beam. We use arches 100% in underground mining for support and ground control. Had no idea this existed. Thanks 

[Firelock76]

You're welcome!  Looks like Mr. Stillwell really knew his stuff, didn't he?

Maybe even better than HE knew he did, considering how long those cars lasted!

As an aside, about a year or so ago, maybe longer, "Railfan and Railroad" magazine ran an article on the New York, Westchester, and Boston.  Good article, although I don't remember the authors name.  I DO remember the opening sentences.  He said as a boy growing up in Westchester County a great way to trigger outbursts from his grandfather, father, and uncles at family gatherings was to mention the NYW&B.  The fury from his male elders over the abandonment of the same was VERY entertaining!  They LOVED that 'road!

PS:  Researching those Stillwells made me appreciate even more all the hard work Wanswheel did coming up with the stuff he did.  I sure wish they'd stop the damn train and let him back on!

PPS:  I did a bit more searching and found some amateur footage of the NYW&B shot in 1937 prior to abandonment, and the abandonment itself.

Look sharp!  Someone who's mentioned in another topic makes a "guest appearance" right at the beginning. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Hnmae2cHU

 

[daveklepper]

In addition to MU Stillwells for thef Hudson and Manhattan (predicessor of PATH), and the New York Westchester and Boston, Stilwells were also built for the London and Port Stanley, and I assume some of the latter ended up on NStC&T.

The Erie suburban Stillwells were built with provision for electrification, conduit, etc, which never happened.  Erie also had Stillwell long-distance coaches, some ending up with air-conditioning and reclining seats.

Stilwell also consulted on the standard BMT steel cars, often collectively known as B-types, but included As, single cars, Bs, three-car groups, all motors with door controls only in the center car and cabs only at each end, and BXs, same but the center a trailer, not allowed in Manhattan Bridge service.

Great photos.  Thanks!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

CWI's Stillwell coaches were ex-Erie.  Not too surprising when you consider that Erie had a 20% interest in CWI.  The suburban trains in question were rush-hour only and ran between Dearborn Station and Dolton.

[Firelock76]

For those who want to persue the matter further, there's a website concerning the New York, Westchester, & Boston...

http://nywbry.com/

Interesting stuff.  It's at times like this I really miss my late father-in-law.  As a Westchester County (Yonkers) native, an avid railfan, and old enough to remember, I'm sure he had some memories of the NYW&B.

[daveklepper]

The NYW&B was  mainline standards, and was supposed to somehow get around the NYNH&H paying the Central for GCT access.  Melln annd crew expected the 2nd Avenue Subway to built by the City, with clearances like the BMT's 4th Avenue Subway in Brooklyn, and this would be the NYW&B's access to downtown Manhattan.

What if they had instead used the same technology and standards as the North Shore and CA&E?  The Willis Avenue track connection that had brought the NYN&H Harlem Branch local Forney-propelled locals from New Rochelle to the 129th elevated station was still in place and used by elevated shuttle trains.  The 2nd Avenue elevated had excess capacity and could have handled the NYW&B trains directly to City Hall - Park Row.

The Hdson and Manhattan Stillwell "black cars" were tested on the 2nd Avenue Elevated before the "Hudson Tubes" opened.

[NDG]

FWIW.

 

Currently on ebay.

 

WE&LS cars on the move. 1939.

 

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7A4AAOSwBXpapjaY/s-l1600.jpg

 

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/U44AAOSwt2papjaW/s-l1600.jpg

 

 

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lfIAAOSwheZapjYf/s-l1600.jpg

 

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Q3wAAOSwm51apjYd/s-l1600.jpg

 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-1930s-6x4-Photograph-Streetcar-Tram-Trolley-Reprinted-1959-Montreal/163224394108?hash=item2600ee997c:g:7A4AAOSwBXpapjaY

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-1930s-6x4-Photograph-Streetcar-Tram-Trolley-Reprinted-1959-Montreal/153156211125?hash=item23a8d251b5:g:lfIAAOSwheZapjYf

 

Also.

 

MSC 620.

 

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lDwAAOSwSEZa7eyS/s-l1600.jpg

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-Montreal-Southern-Counties-RY-Canada-Trolley-620-Granly-local-Photo/253830250421?hash=item3b19763fb5:g:lDwAAOSwSEZa7eyS

 

A nice view of MSC 620 at Granby, Que. before the wire came down in 1951.

 

The carbarn to the rear lasted until recently.

 

On it's far side was a lintel stone lettered ' M&SC ' facing the adjacent highway.

 

 

 

Thank You.

[Firelock76]

I'd like to expand on David's "What if?"  a bit.

What if the NYW&B was third-railed and set up to NYC subway standards?  Might it have survived?   The thought hit me that if it had lasted four more years into the WW2 era the gas rationing and non-availability of new cars just might have given it a lease on life into the post-war era.

[daveklepper]

Note that the portion between E. 180 and Dyer Avenue does survive this day just s you state. Part of the regular A Division "5" line.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Firelock76

I'd like to expand on David's "What if?"  a bit.

What if the NYW&B was third-railed and set up to NYC subway standards?  Might it have survived?   The thought hit me that if it had lasted four more years into the WW2 era the gas rationing and non-availability of new cars just might have given it a lease on life into the post-war era.

 

NYW&B's likely fate would probably have been similar to that of CNS&M or CA&E, more likely the latter.  The lack of a direct connection to the subway and the steam road competition would have doomed it much past 1955.

[Firelock76]

You're probably right, being popular didn't save the North Shore, but I do have to wonder if the post-war expansion of the suburbs in Westchester and points north just might have kept the NYW&B alive carrying commuters. 

It's all speculation of course.  It's fun, if nothing else. 

[GeoffS]

Philadelphia's SEPTA Phildelphia & Western line still runs a fast

schedule from Norristown to 69th street in Upper Darby where

riders have to change to elevated trains to get into Phila.  On the

surface this line appears to be a relic from the past, but it's still going.

Who knows, maybe if the NYW&B had been able to hold on a few

more years......................

[NDG]

 

MSC 620.

 

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lDwAAOSwSEZa7eyS/s-l1600.jpg

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-Montreal-Southern-Counties-RY-Canada-Trolley-620-Granly-local-Photo/253830250421?hash=item3b19763fb5:g:lDwAAOSwSEZa7eyS

 

A nice view of MSC 620 at Granby, Que. before the wire came down in 1951.

 

The carbarn to the rear lasted until recently.

 

On it's far side was a lintel stone lettered ' M&SC ' facing the adjacent highway.

 

 

 

Codocil

 

M&SC Stone, Car Barn, Granby.

 

From Wikipedia.

 

" The workshop and garage located in Granby was demolished in 2008. A small public place now stands in its place, and the "M&SCRy" stone carving formerly in the facade has been preserved as a monument "

 

M&SC Ry. Stone.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4059132,-72.7388118,3a,28.4y,223.04h,74.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBdPLi7mhyra5pXcgPVtxzw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Thank You.