Non-Air Conditioned Heavyweight Pullmans

1862 views
17 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    October, 2004
  • From: Allen, TX
  • 1,217 posts
Non-Air Conditioned Heavyweight Pullmans
Posted by cefinkjr on Thursday, January 18, 2018 12:43 PM

I'm assembling a WW II troop train with heavyweight Pullmans, converted box cars, troop sleepers, and, of course, flat cars, gondolas, and baggage cars.  Three of the Pullmans I have, a Rivarossi 12-1, a Walthers 6-3, and a Varney 14 section car, don't have roof top A/C duct work.  Is it at all possible that any of these would not have been air conditioned by 1940?

The correct duct work could be added to these cars but I'm afraid all those curved surfaces might be beyond my modeling skills.  I'm hoping somebody has memories or photos that might bail me out.  Confused 

Chuck
Allen, TX

  • Member since
    May, 2003
  • From: US
  • 14,835 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, January 18, 2018 2:08 PM

I suspect, but don't know, that some Pullman heavyweight equipment was never air conditioned upto the time Pullman had to restructure it's business model account of the anti-trust judgement.

         

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,462 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, January 18, 2018 2:52 PM

Pullman still had a large pool of non A/C cars as late as 1950 - most of them were designated as "Tourist" cars, but their primary use was in military "mains".  The Korean War was their last hurrah.  If you can find a copy of Wayner's reprint of the 1950 Pullman car list you'll have just about everything you need to know.

  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 6,240 posts
Posted by Overmod on Thursday, January 18, 2018 3:43 PM

cefinkjr
Is it at all possible that any of these would not have been air conditioned by 1940?

I would think it highly likely that Pullman would use non-air-conditioned stock preferentially for main trains, throughout the wartime period. 

That leaves you with contacting the Pullman library or other source to figure out the 'correct' numbering/lettering for accurate non-air-conditioned prototype cars.  Or being prepared to tell a typical my-railroad-my-rules story about why Pullman had non-air-conditioned cars and used them for the cheap troop traffic, which likely has the likely ring and stamp of truth.

  • Member since
    August, 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,761 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, January 18, 2018 5:41 PM

Don't worry about it.  During World War Two if it had wheels and could carry people Pullman used it, no doubt in my mind.

  • Member since
    October, 2004
  • From: Allen, TX
  • 1,217 posts
Posted by cefinkjr on Thursday, January 18, 2018 6:00 PM

Thanks to all who replied.  The names of the cars I have or will have probably won't match the non-air conditioned cars but, as I said repeatedly this afternoon at the local hobby shop, I'm not a rivet counter.

Thnaks again. Bow

Chuck
Allen, TX

  • Member since
    June, 2002
  • 14,206 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, January 19, 2018 7:05 AM

But my understanding is that ALL Pullmn sleepers and diners were air-condiditoned by WWII.   I believe what you mean by non-air-conditioned is ice-airconditioned.  Of course this meant that air-condidtioning depeded on a supply of ice.  And often Main Trains in WWII were not able to receive ice.  Or started with ice and it did not get replentished.

Troop sleepers?  Don't know.

  • Member since
    September, 2003
  • 6,240 posts
Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 19, 2018 9:22 AM

daveklepper
I believe what you mean by non-air-conditioned is ice-airconditioned.

What he means by 'non-air-conditioned' in this specific context is cars that don't have visible (and by his standards 'hard-to-model') conditioned-air ductwork on the roof. 

I suspect ice-activated air conditioning would always have such ducts.  It's comparatively easy to model the 'mechanical' parts of air conditioning below floor level under the car -- even a prototype road has done that! Wink

So what he's really asking is whether Pullmans with unmodified roofs and the indicated plans would be worked on main trains in WWII.  I'd have thought that either here or on RyPN he'd have gotten a definitive answer (right down to classes and names!) long before now...

  • Member since
    October, 2004
  • From: Allen, TX
  • 1,217 posts
Posted by cefinkjr on Friday, January 19, 2018 10:05 AM

Overmod
What he means by 'non-air-conditioned' in this specific context is cars that don't have visible (and by his standards 'hard-to-model') conditioned-air ductwork on the roof.

EXACTLY!  I thought I said that but maybe I was too subtle. Smile

As far as "a definitive answer (right down to classes and names!)" is concerned, that would be a case of TMI.  Allow me to bask in my ignorance and not feel guilty about moving on to other projects. Whistling

Chuck
Allen, TX

  • Member since
    January, 2004
  • From: Canada, eh?
  • 8,577 posts
Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, January 19, 2018 8:43 PM

cefinkjr
...Allow me to bask in my ignorance and not feel guilty about moving on to other projects.....

Hope I'm not raining on your parade, Chuck, but New England Rail Services offers pre-formed styrene roof ducts, with several styles of separate ends.  They also offer many underbody details, along with different style windows, allowing you to create a model of almost any Pullman car.  The windows and ductwork were originally offered for the Rivarossi heavyweights, but can be used on many cars from other manufacturers, too.

Most of my passenger cars are painted and lettered for my free-lanced roads, and I've converted all of my Rivarossi 12-1 cars into coaches...

...another 12-1, converted into a coach/solarium, using the NERS windows...

The underbodies were done using parts from NERS, Precision Scale, and scratchbuilt stuff, too...

Mainline Modeler had a nicely-done series on Pullman cars in several of their issues in 1981.  I don't have all of them but they covered both prototypes and building models of those cars.  You may be able to find copies at train shows in your area. 
I promise to not tell anybody if you opt to not detail your cars, but I found it very educational and enjoyable, and was pleased to be able to create some unique models that probably no one else has.

Wayne

  • Member since
    February, 2005
  • 1,748 posts
Posted by timz on Saturday, January 20, 2018 4:43 PM

daveklepper
my understanding is that ALL Pullman sleepers and diners were air-conditioned by WWII.

Tourist sleepers too? Bet some Otto Perry 1940s pics at digital.denverlibrary.org will disprove that.

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,462 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 20, 2018 5:20 PM

Pullman had over 300 "13 Section" sleepers in 1950, modifed from 12 section 1 Drawing Room cars by the simple means of removing the Drawing Room doors.  Of those only 11 had AC, a mix of Ice and Mechanical/Brine Tank.  The cars were identified by number (unusual for Pullmans) and carried numbers in the 1000, 2000 and 3000 series, with lots of holes in the sequence.  Pullman also had numbered 14- and 16- section cars that were non-AC.  The AC-equipped cars of those types were used as tourist cars in the summer months, and 6 were owned by NP to compete with Milwaukee's Touralux cars.

All of the "13 Section" cars were listed as Plan 2410, 2410A or 2410F, all plans normally associated with 12-1 cars.  Pullman diagram number was 45, where a 12-1 was diagram 5.

  • Member since
    August, 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 9,551 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, January 20, 2018 7:27 PM

Were the sofas removed from the "13 section sleepers?"

Johnny

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,462 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, January 21, 2018 7:30 PM

Deggesty

Were the sofas removed from the "13 section sleepers?"

 

I don't know for sure, but I don't think so since the plan numbers weren't changed.  I think the only intent was to eliminate any enclosed space.

  • Member since
    June, 2002
  • 14,206 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, January 22, 2018 2:19 AM

I suspect then, that what was meant by the publicity of all cars air-conditioned was all Pullmans assigned for 1st-Class travel.   Anyone know any exception to this after 1939?

  • Member since
    October, 2004
  • From: Allen, TX
  • 1,217 posts
Posted by cefinkjr on Monday, January 22, 2018 11:18 AM

Since the sofas were on the partition separating the Drawing Room from the corridor, I don't see how sofas could not have been removed.  I have to wonder, though, what they were thinking since this would reduce the sleeping capacity of the car from 41 to 39 at a time when 3 soldiers were assigned to sections designed for 2 people.

Chuck
Allen, TX

  • Member since
    May, 2012
  • 3,462 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 22, 2018 1:51 PM

cefinkjr

Since the sofas were on the partition separating the Drawing Room from the corridor, I don't see how sofas could not have been removed.  I have to wonder, though, what they were thinking since this would reduce the sleeping capacity of the car from 41 to 39 at a time when 3 soldiers were assigned to sections designed for 2 people.

 

The partition wasn't removed, just the doors.

  • Member since
    February, 2002
  • From: Mpls/St.Paul
  • 10,737 posts
Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 3:08 PM

Re the OP comment about "ducts", I hope he understands that you don't really see the piping / air ducts / whatever on the roof. All you see is that instead having the normal clerestory roof in the center, with windows on both side, you have one or both sides filled in...the duct work would be underneath that. (See the link)

I can't remember who, but I know at least at one time a company offered a kit to add the "bulges" to clerestory roofed passenger cars. Not terribly complicated.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-so_V1t_CmYE/VAZUnJuiNYI/AAAAAAAAHwU/WudoIEZUdk8/s1600/P.F.%2Bdone.jpg

 

 

 

Stix

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter