Israeli Steam

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Israeli Steam
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 3:17 AM

First some photos from pre-Mandate Turkish-rule days, ending with one British military base locomotive, WWI.  Original narrow gauge line, charter obtained by French-trained engieer, Joseph Navon, son of Eliyahu Navon, who represented the "Jews of Jerusalem and surounding ares" in the Turkish Parliament:

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:13 PM

British mandate and pre-diesel Israeli standard gauge:

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:34 PM

Great shots David, are any of those locomotives still around?

Interesting shot in the pre-mandate section, the last one with what looks like a Baldwin trench locomotive hauling (presumeably) British troops.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 2:57 AM

Exactly, Firelock, at a WWI British miliary base, probably near Rafa.

The 2-6-0 on the turntable at Jerusalem, and much else of the original Jaffa - Jerusalem equipment was from the failed French attempt to build the Panama Canal.

The original Jerusalem station still stands, and Jaffa - Jerusalem is now standard gauge as in the Mandate period, but not currently served by rail.  Not much else in the photographs do, however.  Don't know of any steam preserved other than one narrow gauge from the Haifa-Jordan railway in the Haifa RR  Museum, forget the wheel arrangement.

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Posted by Trinity River Bottoms Boomer on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 4:51 AM

David, I agree with Firelock76.  Great shots!  Before I burn out my computer looking for books on the subject can you list any that have been published to date.

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 7:28 AM

Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

David, I agree with Firelock76.  Great shots!  Before I burn out my computer looking for books on the subject can you list any that have been published to date.

 
If you are interested in locomotive details and history you can't go past:
 
"Middle East Railways" by Hugh Hughes, published by the Continental Railway Circle in 1981.
 
The 600mm Baldwin 4-6-0T shown above as the last photo in the first post is identified on page 36 as being No 622, seen near Jaffa in 1918. 
 
I believe an ex War Department Stanier 2-8-0, last operated in Turkey, is preserved in Israel.
 
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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 8:47 AM

Not to distract from the precise topic, but I think Iraq had far more interesting steam:

and with the leaps and bounds being made in underwater exploration and recovery, it might be time to see where PC 504 actually reposes, as it might be retrievable.  New Zealanders have restored locomotives in worse initial shape!

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 9:34 AM

Correction to my last post and additions.  The Jerusalem - Jaffa line was standard-gauged by the British.  It was cut-back from its convenient original Jerusalem station to the Mslcha shipping area because of a real-estate scheme and is inconvient as well as slow for travel to T.A.  But at the T. A. end it is through routed through the Ayalon North-South highway and rail corridor, joining the Msndate period line from Beir Sheva, and now farther south frolm Oran, perhaps some day to be extended to Elat or more sensibly connected to the Jordanian line to Aqaba and then to Elat,.  The junction is at Na'an, south of Ramla, which is south of Lod.  The Ayalon corridor through T. A. connects a the north end with the main post-Independence line north to Haifa and Naharia and to a branch splitting to Kfar Saba.  Service through the corridor in T. A. is fequent enough that I use it as a rapid transit line between the four T. A. stations.  None of this existed in the steam days.  There was no direct T. A. - Haifa line, but there was a line still used (at least in part for freight) north from Lod, close to the "Green Line" and swinging over to the coast and the new direct line north of Haders.  But in the steam days the Jerusalem - Haifa train had a genuine dining car.  It was still running with a diesel in 1960 at the time of my first visit.

The new Jerusalem - T. A. direct line through Lod (Ben Gurion) Airport will change travel considerably.

Overmod, can we have some details on the Iraqi locomotive?

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 6:48 PM

daveklepper
Overmod, can we have some details on the Iraqi locomotive?

Most of the 'hard' data I have on the PC class comes from the Hugh Hughes book Peter mentioned.  Four of these were ordered, one of them was 'sunk' enroute.  All three working locomotives apparently survived well into the 1960s, although I doubt they have survived the intervening 'times of troubles' between then and now.  As I recall, I asked Mark Hemphill to look around or ask to see if anyone knew the subsequent story of any of the PCs 'as of' the American administration of the Iraqi system in the postwar years, but I don't recall reading anything by him about them.

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 10:39 PM

Overmod
 
daveklepper
Overmod, can we have some details on the Iraqi locomotive?

 

Most of the 'hard' data I have on the PC class comes from the Hugh Hughes book Peter mentioned.  Four of these were ordered, one of them was 'sunk' enroute.  All three working locomotives apparently survived well into the 1960s, although I doubt they have survived the intervening 'times of troubles' between then and now.  As I recall, I asked Mark Hemphill to look around or ask to see if anyone knew the subsequent story of any of the PCs 'as of' the American administration of the Iraqi system in the postwar years, but I don't recall reading anything by him about them.

 

 

Drawings of the Iraqi Pacific appear in O.S Nock's "The British Steam Locomotive 1925-1965" published by Ian Allen (in the early 1970s?). It was shown as an example of a locomotive designed for oil burning with a narrow firebox, in conjunction with the British conversions from coal of the late 1940s caused by miner's strikes.

These locomotives carried names, "Baghdad" and "Mosul" among others after major cities on the line.

Peter

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, November 02, 2017 5:30 AM

Isn't it 'The British Steam Railway Locomotive'?  I should have had a copy long ago and now have the excuse to rectify the deficiency!

Something else I did not know, in part because I wouldn't have thought to ask, is that Britain had a counterpart to the American frenzy for oil conversion in the late 1940s, for the same stated reason.  I wouldn't think that under a nominally Socialist government the railways would get very far with planning for oil conversion; presumably this was in the part of the late '40s before nationalization into British Rail?  Could this have been a political factor accelerating nationalization?  Not to be overly lazy ... but what are some good sources for this, in addition to Nock's?

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, November 02, 2017 7:18 PM

Overmod

Not to distract from the precise topic, but I think Iraq had far more interesting steam:

and with the leaps and bounds being made in underwater exploration and recovery, it might be time to see where PC 504 actually reposes, as it might be retrievable.  New Zealanders have restored locomotives in worse initial shape!

 

Man, that hing looks like a cross between the "Commodore Vanderbilt" and the locomotive that pulled the "Fuehrer Sonderzug."

Anyone checked the garages at Saddam's old palaces?  Maybe there's one squirreled away in one of them.

Hey, US forces in Iraq have found old Sherman tanks in Iraqi army tank parks, although not in the best of condition, so anything's possible.  They even found some Renault FT-17 tanks from WWI in Afghanistan!

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Posted by M636C on Friday, November 03, 2017 6:08 AM

Overmod

Isn't it 'The British Steam Railway Locomotive'?  I should have had a copy long ago and now have the excuse to rectify the deficiency!

Something else I did not know, in part because I wouldn't have thought to ask, is that Britain had a counterpart to the American frenzy for oil conversion in the late 1940s, for the same stated reason.  I wouldn't think that under a nominally Socialist government the railways would get very far with planning for oil conversion; presumably this was in the part of the late '40s before nationalization into British Rail?  Could this have been a political factor accelerating nationalization?  Not to be overly lazy ... but what are some good sources for this, in addition to Nock's?

 
The least likely source is a children's book, "The Dumpy book of Railways of the World" one of a series on transport which includes an amazing amount of useful data, if badly edited. Iraq scored two locomotives, a Stanier 2-8-0 class class TD and the PC. There is a (very small) outline diagram and the following details:
 
TE: 31 080 lbs, 2 cyls 21 x 26 in., BP: 220lb, Coupled Wheels 5'9", Weight, engine and tender 335 964 lbf. Tender 6000 gal water, 1750 gal oil. Length engine and tender 71' 9-1/2", Built by Robert Stephenson and Hawthorns.
 
On the same page (given the thread title) were two Israeli locomotives,  a class "LMS-8F" which obviously looked a lot like the Iraqi TD and a Class P, a 4-6-0 built by North British in 1934-35. The rear cover of the book included coloured side elevations of nine locomotives, including a UP Challenger, "Silver Link"  and the Iraqi PC in apple green.
 
I believe that details of the PC were included in an article in the Proceedings of the Institution of Locomotive Engineers, I think in the early 1950s describing the reminincences of an engineer with the Crown Agents for the Colonies.
 
To return to Oswald Stanley Nock (not my favourite author), this book was intended as a second volume to a book of the same name, indeed "The British Steam Railway Locomotive" with the dates "1825 to 1925" by E.L. Ahrons which was a compilation of articles in "The Locomotive" magazine. The first printing of "1925-1965" (in 1966) matched in size, style and appearance the original "1825-1925" volume. Ian Allan reprinted the original and a third printing of Nock's volume both with 1970s style dust jackets in 1973 (which I purchased).
 
The 1966 book is like an American "Locomotive Cyclopedia" in many respects, concentrating on engineering detail with numerous excellent diagrams and many builder's photographs.
 
The PC class details are on pages 194 (three drawing views of the firebox) and page 195 (sectioned side elevation drawing) Also on page 195 is a list of 1276 locomotives scheduled for conversion to oil in 1946. This was abandoned when it was realised that there was no foreign exchange available to buy the oil, intended to save one million tons of coal per year.
 
The Great Western had converted a couple of "Castle" class to oil burning and used them in Cornwall on fast passenger trains. Most of the other locomotives scheduled for oil burning were freight locomotives. The "Castles" were thought to work very well and had much higher utilisation with the use of oil fuel (described on pages 193-194).
 
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Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 06, 2017 12:45 PM

M636C
Also on page 195 is a list of 1276 locomotives scheduled for conversion to oil in 1946. This was abandoned when it was realised that there was no foreign exchange available to buy the oil, intended to save one million tons of coal per year.

Did any contemporary or later authors mention anything about how successful Bulleid's Leader might have been if it had been equipped with oil firing as originally intended?

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Posted by M636C on Saturday, November 11, 2017 7:53 AM

Overmod

 

 
M636C
Also on page 195 is a list of 1276 locomotives scheduled for conversion to oil in 1946. This was abandoned when it was realised that there was no foreign exchange available to buy the oil, intended to save one million tons of coal per year.

 

Did any contemporary or later authors mention anything about how successful Bulleid's Leader might have been if it had been equipped with oil firing as originally intended?

 
I haven't seen anything about the Leader being more successful if oil firing were to be used. While it would have made the life of the fireman much more comfortable, I believe that there were so many technical difficulties with the rest of the locomotive that it wouldn't have changed anything.
 
In H.A.V. Bullied's book on his father's work, I recall seeing an early version of the "Leader" concept as a 4-6-4 tank with streamlining like the Pacifics. If Bullied had stopped with that concept, the locomotive may have been a success.
 
Even the CIE CC 1, which eliminated many of the less succesful innovations in the Leader, might have succeeded with fewer complications.
 
Perhaps i'm just too old and getting set in conventional ways....
 
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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, November 11, 2017 12:45 PM

Just in case anyone asks why I have not the least objection to the turn this thread has taken, first I happen to be interested in British steam, and more relevent, if war over immigration had not broken out in 1948, more modern British steam would certainly have been applied by the British-run "Palestine Railways."

Nearly all the steam operated by Israel Railways up to dieselization was British.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 7:09 AM

Mike Macdonals emailed me the following photos with permision to post them;

The "Orient Express"at Gaza, 1930

 

Jerusalem 1918

 

Haifa - Kantera Express, 1930?

 

In Jerusalem 1930

 

Jerusalem Station, 1930

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:08 AM

daveklepper

Mike Macdonals emailed me the following photos with permision to post them;

 

 

Jerusalem 1918

 

In Jerusalem 1930

 

These locomotives are Baldwin, built in 1918.

Fifty of them were built numbered 871 to 920. The numbering is odd, since no other Palestine Railway locomotives had numbers over 100. They were known as class H and had 62" driving wheels and 19" x 26" cylinders.

Hughes (Middle East Railways) indicates that the line from Jaffa to Jerusalem was dismantled during the war, having been built originally to metre gauge and standard gauge was relaid in September 1920. The  dual gauge is interesting, suggesting that both gauges might have been used together or in quick succession. But the likely date of the first photo must be late 1920 or later.

The second photo shows one of the later 1918 Baldwins. The locomotive behind it is the slightly larger P class 4-6-0, built by North British in 1935, which will help to date the photo. The P class is dramatically taller than the English LMS 8F 2-8-0s which arrived after service in Iran in 1948.

Peter

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:25 AM

This view shows one of the five original metre gauge Baldwin 2-6-0s of the Jaffa to Jerusalem Railway, three built in 1890 and two in 1892. These had 43" driving wheels and 15" x 18" cylinders. They were numbered 1 to 5 and had names including "Jaffa" and "Jerusalem". No 3 was the last survivor, and was rebuilt to 1050mm gauge and became No 18 on Palestine Railways narrow gauge list until 1930.

Peter

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 16, 2017 9:53 AM

There were locomotives that preceded these two, that were used in constructing the line and providing some of the initial service.  I think they were 0-6-0 tank locomotives, second-hand from the French attempt to construct the Panema Canal before USA involvement.

I appreciate all the data supplied on all these locomoitives.  Here are a two pictures from the narrow gauge days at Jersulem:

Opening the line in 1892:

And here is a view from the period when the stationo was still in use before the cut-bach to the Malcha suburban station:

 A few Kibbutzim and Moshavim had their own "narrow gauge railways" for collection of farm produce.

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, November 16, 2017 7:44 PM

Beautiful old engines, that's for certain!

And I just love that Jerusalem Station photo from 1930, looks like it's right out of a Hollywood movie!  I enlarged the picture on the computer to see if I could find Sidney Greenstreet or Peter Lorre lurking in the background.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, November 16, 2017 9:13 PM

It would be quite a dilemma each day to decide whether to go with the Fez or the Pith Helmet. I figure Dave for a Fez guy, but being a Geologist it's the Pith helmet pour moi.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, November 17, 2017 12:35 AM

This should answer the question of how I protect my head from the sun.  Also was posted on the Jerusalem Light Rail thread  (if my short-term momory is holding):

This is at the Amunition Hill (named by the British) Station, closest to my apartment, and my visiting friend on the left in the picture is fellow Branford and ERA member Ken Shapiro  -  who did buy a hat and sunglasses later.

My off-white hat is typical for many Israelis.  Unlike a Fez or a pyth helmit, it can be folded and put in one's briefcase, napsack, or even pocket.

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, November 17, 2017 11:37 AM

Tilley hats didn't come along until 1980! Can't be wearing that back in the day on the (now politically incorrectly named) Orient Express.

Anyway you are looking mighty dapper in that hat!

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Posted by M636C on Friday, November 17, 2017 6:56 PM

Firelock76

Beautiful old engines, that's for certain!

And I just love that Jerusalem Station photo from 1930, looks like it's right out of a Hollywood movie!  I enlarged the picture on the computer to see if I could find Sidney Greenstreet or Peter Lorre lurking in the background.

Between the two men wearing fez facing the camera there is a man wearing a straw boater, and behind him a man in a white suit wearing a panama. He's too short for Sidney Greenstreet but about the right height for Peter Lorre...

That photo does show amazing detail.

I have a US Army Pith Helmet, obtained in 1982 from Diego Garcia by some junior Navy officers with nothing better to fill their time while a major failure of their Destroyer's GMLS-13 missile launcher was rectified. So my choice of hat is clear.

There is also the instruction to the crew of a First World War armoured train operating in Palestine, reproduced by Hughes in "Middle East Railways"

"Particular attention is drawn to the order that caps are not to be worn between the hours of 7 am and 5:30 pm": This meant that pith helmets (called topees in the British Army) WERE to be worn during those hours...

Peter

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, November 17, 2017 9:00 PM

M636C--Fascinating account. It actually makes sense to wear the Topees for the men during those hours. Quite the striking scene to see a full crew of men on an armoured train wearing these. Shades of the movie "Zulu".

I see Firelock with his musket wearing the Fez with a fine emblem on the front and some kind of flourish hanging down along the side. 

I've decided that, myself being such a striking fiqure, I will forgo the Pith and go all out Lawrence of Arabia and don the Keffiyeh in that non traditional but stylish fashion. 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, November 18, 2017 7:37 PM

Me in a fez?  Hmmmm, I don't know if I could pull that one off, not sure I've got the head or the profile for it.

But one of those Victorian pith helmets, whoops, "Topees," like they wore in "Zulu?" I think I could manage that with no trouble, but not as well as the fine NCO with the mutton-chop whiskers we're about to visit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivaKBtZ_WvA

 

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, November 19, 2017 12:09 AM

Well I just knew that would flush you out Firelock.

The reason for donning you with the Fez is I thought the Topee would interfere with your 1776 Musket aim and firing but I suppose not. A coon skin or beaver hat would look out of place and too hot. So the Pith/Topee is it then. 

Regardless we would all look pretty good boarding the Orient Express. Now that would be something. 

Don't think you could even make that movie today, history or not. 

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Posted by Trinity River Bottoms Boomer on Sunday, November 19, 2017 3:19 AM

David, thanks for sharing a photo of you with friend.  How large is your apt?

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, November 19, 2017 3:27 AM

If you return to the 1930 Jerusalem photo, there is a man standing under the left edge, as viewed, of the "jerusalem" sign wearing a topee. This must be John Mills, although I don't know what role he is playing...

Another headwear option is the so called "slouch" hat of the Australian Army. This was clipped up on the left side, but could be worn as a normal hat. The brim was clipped up to allow the Lee-Enfield 0.303 rifle to be "shouldered". I myself learnt to do this in the high school cadet corps with a gun that dated back to 1917.

This is relevant because one hundred years ago, the Australian Light Horse (wearing these hats, with emu feathers), took part in the last big cavalry charge, occupying the town of Beersheba in Palestine, which opened the land route to Gaza, Jaffa and Jerusalem. We are told that this marked the end of Turkish rule in Palestine. It is possible that the story told elsewhere might give more credit to the British Army. 

My father visited Palestine in 1941. There are photos of him in the doorway of a large four wheeled box car lettered "PR", and shots from the train of a long string of such boxcars winding through the hills. I think my father made it to Jaffa, but not to Jerusalem. Of course, his itinerary wasn't at his discretion, and he returned to Australia in late 1941 by ship. There was some concern about aircraft, and there is a photo of his Bofors 40/60 Mk 3 gun set up on the deck of the ship.

The photo collection ends with my father's own photos of the Japanese surrender in Borneo, a bit like the one in Tokyo Bay but with less exalted attendees on each side.

Peter

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