More. The Tremont Yard is emopty when photographed during rush hout:
Probably at 84th
Probably between Tremont and Forfham, from rear platform going north:
From Joe Franks, via Jack May, looking northwest. from within Bronx Park. and MUDC (multiple-unit-door-control, rebuilt gate-car) approaching the Elevated's Bronx Park branch terminal:
Another Joe Franks picture, looking east at the Elevated's Fordham Road Starion. The Third Avenue Transit sweeper and relocated ex-Manhattan Streetcar are both on one of the two stub tracks that remain from the long-gone 3rd Avenue Bronx streetcar line, not on the Fordham Road tracks used by the X 207-Fordham Crsstown, and C Bronx and Van Courtland Park regular cars. Others assumed that the train of composites on the Elevated's center track is a Through Express from 241 St. to City Hall, but both morning and evening Through Expresses operated on the local track of the correct direction, since they made all stops north of Tremont Avenue. Instead, it is morning Through Express equipment running light returning from City Hall to its regular lay-up location on the center track between Fordham Road and Gun Hill Road:
Hello Dave !
You may remember me from the E.R.A. in the 1960's-70's -- and from my traction magazine wiritngs in the 1980's-90's. I grew up and lived along the Manhattan 3rd Ave EL and rode and photographed it a lot until the Manhattan part was closed and torn down between Aug and Dec. 1955 -- and I covered the Bronx line even more extensively. I lived next to the uptown E.84th Street local station. I scratch-built modeled the old era NY City EL's in both HO (1964 thru 1983) and later O Scale (1984 to present) . I have been reading your comments here for years and decided to finally join up. Have enjoyed your photos and memories of the EL and trolleys in NY City. I model both Brooklyn (BRT & B&QT) & T.A.R.S / Steinway Lines Trolleys. Also BMT, IND and IRT Steel pre and post war subway cars and BMT Wooden EL Cars. Here are a few photos of just a few of my IRT Wooden El cars from my Layout Photo website;
Well, if you want to see more -- click my FLICKR Albums link . Regards - Joe F !
Hello Again Dave !
I sent you a previous reply message here but it has now shown up on this thread 24 hours after I posted it ! Perhaps this will. Regards - Joe Frank
(Quoted by Dave Klepper - "Probably at 84th")
I emailed you another photo looking north from the south end of the downtown platform in 1954, with a downtown train approaching and an uptown local departing at right. I saw this scene countless times when I was on the EL there !
And you remember those quite numerous original 1878 built unique Victorian era stairways and rounded handrails at corners -- see photo I emailed you in a view down to the sidestreet at a Local Station
Well, Dave, you and I were there back then and are among the fewer people remaining who are old enough to have ridden and remembered that famous line - now 65 years later famous all across the internet presently -- thanks for your nostalgia and memories of the era -- they mirror mine !!
regards - Joe F
Terrific to hear from you after all these years! Wonderful models. Do you observe the difference between elevated 3rd-rail and subway third rail in O-gauge? With the protection board for the latter? Terribly difficult in HO but might be achievable in O.
One beautiful and otherwise realistic photo cried out for some e,lectronic-darkroom work, so herewith.
Your Flikr file does not work for me. Just family pictures.
Have you posted on the Model RR magazine forum. Track layout?
here is the URL that works foe me, and is worth the effort:
http://www.wtv-zone.com/NYCityModelTransitSystem/NYCityModelTransit/index.html
Why didn't you post it to begin with?
Thanks for the reply!..
I posted a copy of my photo to compare with the identical one you stated (and included) above that you did some electronic darkroom work on -- but I cannot see or notice any difference between the photos . See MY original photo below;
What "improvements" were accomplished on your end ?!
My FLICKR photos webpages work properly for everyone on the net and have so for over a decade now. -- and there are NO family photos on any of my Flickr Photo site accounts. And they are easily found on Google search. I don't know what happened when you opened the Flickr Link I provided. Here is the / my MAIN (photostream) FLICKR SITE and on it at its top menu link you can access the ALBUMS, FAVORITES, and etc,. of photos. LINK HERE:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/44268069@N00/page1
The WTV Zone (a private hosting site) Layout photos webpages site I built, created myself, totally from scratch (from blank page space) using solely HTML code writeup to build and create what is seen on its pages. Its sort of a "coffee table book" type site with a lot more historic and detail info for the models vs: prototypes.
As for the modeled 3rd rail on my O-Scale "EL" layout, I modeled IRT "Manhattan Railway" EL STYLE 3rd rail higher and closer to track, but I DID NOT install the usual wooden higher safety "backboard" which was used ONLY on the Manhattan portions of the original Manhattan Railway Co. 2nd, 3rd, 6th & 9th Ave. EL's.
HOWEVER, on the Bronx 3rd Ave EL segment (prior to 1957) and Bronx extension of the 9th Ave EL line (and after 6-1940, then the Polo Ground Shuttle) where it connected at 162nd St. & River Ave to the IRT Jerome Ave. subway Line Elevated portion, the safety backboard was omitted. On IRT lines with JOINT operation of trains of steel subway cars & wooden EL cars, the safety backboard was omitted because it would foul - as designed - the lower paddle type 3rd rail shoes of subway car trucks...rising their contact paddles about 1 1/2 inches ABOVE the EL Style 3rd rail head (ie: causing no electric pickup). Those lines (Woodlawn-Jerome El, West Farm & White Plains EL's - as well as pre-1949 IRT operated Flushing & Astoria EL's in Queens) had TWO 3rd rails along each track. One was covered subway style (lower and further from track) and the higher ande closer EL style 3rd rail for EL Cars and their "drop sled" pickup shoes. I am sure you were likely aware of all this, but if not -- there it it. The Manhattan lines had the 3rd rail higher safety wood-backboard to PREVENT any errant accidental operation of any steel subway train on the lighter structures of the Manhattan EL's.
MY Model EL system follows the BMT EL practice of early years (prior to 1966) having one style 3rd rail alongside each track - totally unprotected on sides or top, for both their steel subway trains and wooden E trains, to collect power from. After 1966 the last remaining uncovered BMT 3rd rail was elimated and all because subway style with above coverboard.
The wooden BMT Q type EL cars on the Myrtle Ave EL had their drop sled Manhattan El style shoes replaced with subway paddle shoes by 1966 (along with their cut down clerestory roofs done in 1961-2 to clear most BMT-IND and IRT subway tunnels) and thus operate anywhere on the system.
Regards - Joe F
You are a terrific modeler. If you do not post your pictures on the Model Railroader Forum, I'd like to do so and suggest a visit to your layout website.
Compring your model pictures with those of the prototype shows how truly great your work is.
All I did with electronic-darkroom waork was remove the tilt, while keeping all important data. Look again.
The new link you posted works fine for me, and i could spend several days just looking at the photos. and two fune layouts, one ho and one O. with all those models and all that scenery, when do you have time to eat and sleep? Let alone earn money?
Hello Dave
I NOW saw the slight "tilt fix" in your "enhanced version" of my photo ! -- I can do that on my editing program also. Looks like it created a bit more "sky" space also.
Thanks for the supportive nice comments...its been a labor of love. I had No TV and NO Internet back in those days --- so with my two working careers, with always a girlfriend in my life most times, and just taking care of home and life (batchelor) -- most of my spare time was doing the modeling. I multi tasked -- never wasted a second of modeling time --- while paint on one model is setting, I work on another model, and when glue on that is setting, I work on another project. And then return to the originals. Back and forth to completion
I have about 800,000 Color & B&W transit photos (most in route-line order or system albums) and about 550,000 color slides..all cataloged by line and system and organized. And about 90K images on my computer.
Here is a photo site I did on Facebook a few years ago - my photos and color slides of the Bronx 3rd Ave EL mainly (and a few collected via being traded with copies of mine, long ago back in the day with my pals) - From 1954 onward.
It's called "The Late Great Bronx 3rd Ave EL" . I am sure you will enjoy it and recognize it all. Here is its link -- look for and click PHOTOS in the menu left column and on that page, see & click ALBUMS. I did each EL Station in its own album from 149th St. to E.171st Street -- and then recently I departed FB before I completed it up to Gun Hill Rd.. so it ends there. LINK HERE:
https://www.facebook.com/The-Late-Great-BRONX-3rd-Avenue-El-408052719793796/?modal=admin_todo_tour
I am going to re-create it - and to completion - over on a new FLICKR SITE. In Albums format for each station.
I have been taking NYC EL and subway photos and slides since I was 7 years old - extensively. Thanks to a supportive batchelor uncle who provided most all film and processing costs - I was the son he never had - heh. I later became a working professional photographer, and a working professional pianist also.
You and I are similar "dinosaurs" in that we covered NY transit at our then very much younger ages and realized we were documenting history and what we knew would within years all be gone. And it was gone, sadly ! And we saw it happen. And we were lucky to have been there to experience it, ride it, and photo document it all. Myself, in both photos and models ! I moved to Pennsylvania 52 years ago! And model Philly traction and have countless slides and photos of Philly stuff I shot from 1968 to present.
YES - If you wish, you can post my model pics on the other (Model RR) Forum.
HOWEVER - I will not be posting much more HERE at this time because I am still being held under NEW MEMBER MODERATION - thus my posts and responses take some time to become approved for display. And this has been going on for the past few postings. And I do not know for how much longer. Until that ceases, I will post very little as it affects timely return-replies from me presently.
Here are a few more model photos - of the T.A.R.S. type, that you may like:
Here is a video of Trolley under the EL with trains overhead running (LINK) Click the link and click the white arrow on its center image to start video; (note: Copy & past Video URL into your browser address bar)
https://flic.kr/p/mncKr5
NOTE: I removed the accidentally installed duplicate posting here, of what is seen (my first posting) above !! Sorry for the duplicate posting - don't know what happened to cause that ! !
I guess the readers here don't appreciate really scale detailed transit modeling -- except Dave Klepper !
Joe F
I rode a gate-car local train on the Third Avenue elevated line in Manhattan in August 1949 when I was on my first visit to New York. I could see the express track rising up alongside us through the car windows. It was the first time I found out about the upper-level arrangement for express trains. It must have been during rush hour, because the train was crowded and my sister and I had a little trouble getting through the gate to get off.
A very very rare rush-hour exception, possibly because a more-than-average number of MUDCs were in for repair and/or maintenace at 99th Street Shops.
If the train was only five cars long, the reason above would apply, and the origine going north was probably South Ferry, with the niorthern destination 129th Street or Tremont Avenue.
If the train was seven-cars long, originated at City Hall, and had any Bronx northern destination, Tremont Avenue, Fordham Road, Bronx Park, Gun Hill Road, or 241st Street- White Plains Road, it was Through Exoress euipment that had been diverted to provide local service to fill a gap. porobably because of some disruption on the South Ferry branch.
transferred from the Brooklyn Elevateds thread, following Joe Frank's correction.
Looking west from 86th Street & 2nd Avenue, 1947 or 1948.
Well, as you can see - via the private email I sent to you - with the 2021 image of the same location on E. 86th Street -- nothing is remaining as seen in your 1946 B&W photo --- except the corner building at left at the SW corner 2nd Ave & E. 86th Street. All others west to 3rd Ave. -- and somewhat west to Lex. Ave., replaced by Hi-Rise buildings. The old neighborhood is decades long gone from the Multi-European based communiuty it was long ago. It was a basic big waste of my time and effort to try to put the modern photo here for you to see on this message at this site -- it would continually not show up. Regards - Joe F
Nate Gerstein photo looking north on thr lower level of the Harlem River Bridge also belongs here.
Two more Nate Gersten transmissions arrived, one is herewith poted, the other on the other Third Avene Elevated thread. This shows the yard just north of the Harlem River Bridge filled with the 0-4-4T Forneys that powered the Manhattan Elevateds before electrification. The train behind is a Seconf Avenue train to or from Bronx Park, with one of the rare oipen-car trailers in its consist.
All the operational Forneys were sold for further use. two ending up in Alaska, several on Cuban sugar plantations, and many on short-lines. The last two were sold in 1942!
The other Third Avenue Elevated thread has what I was told was the original elevated railroad steam locomitive.
One of the Forneys was kept operational for emergencies, and was kept under cover in a shed near 129th St. and 2nd Avenue.
daveklepper several on Cuban sugar plantations
Hmmm, maybe a trip to Cuba's in order?
Of course, who knows what kind of shape they're in at this point, if they're even still around? Steam hunter Colin Garratt once said the maintanance on Cuban steam engines ranged from "outstanding" to "bombs looking for a place to explode," and some did.
Have been reading and remembering the 3rd Ave. El.
One of my "oldest" recollection was not of the elevated line itself but of the trolleys that ran underneath.
What, beleive it or not, was the way the wicker seat backs were moved to reflect the change of direction for the return trip. (As a youngster, I always though that the trolley had to make a circle to go back downtown before I saw the action)
Another thing I remember was how wide 3rd Avenue appeared once the El was removed.
Thanks, so much.
Go to the thread on Third Avene homemade lightweight cars, and you will get all the information you could want. But not only double-end streetcarsm but also classic non-air-conditioned commuter and long-distance railroad coaches had (have) flippable, reversable seatbacks, and the streetcr operator or railroad trainmab or conductor could (can) walk down the aisle and use one hand on the right and one on the left flipping the seatbacks pivoted at mid-height or at the bottom on a the two curved tracks under the armrests.
Correction, the infornative entry and discussion on "changing ends" is on the Scranton thread.
Joe Frank sent me a scanned version of the newspaper photo of the May, 1955 last Manhatgan 3rd Avenue Elevated, I was in the Army at Fort Bragg, NC, and could not attend.
Hello Dave.
That is an enlargement image I made (from the full size image) of the end of the last car -- I thought that man leaning out the storm door opening may have been you at about age 22 or 23 then ! Here BELOW is the FULL SIZE version which I also sent you via private email an hour ago.
It is looking north from the north end of the lower level N/B local station platform of the 3rd Ave EL's E. 42nd Street Double-Deck Express Station. This final and last "revenue" local train on the Manhattan part of the EL was at this location about 6:30 PM that Thurs. 5-12-1955 as it heads towards the E. 47th Street Local Station seen in distance.. and the Bronx and the to soon be E.149th Street new southern terminal station. Regards - Joe F.
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