Disposition of GN 1198 and GN 1199 "Manitoba Club" and "Winnipeg Club"

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Disposition of GN 1198 and GN 1199 "Manitoba Club" and "Winnipeg Club"
Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, February 12, 2017 2:32 PM

Does anyone know the disposition of the GN 1198 and GN 1199? Per the NP St. Paul Division Timetables (which covered St. Paul to Staples and the joint line between Northtown and St. Cloud) GN 7 and 8 were removed in 1968. I don't find those cars went to AMTRAK ("Amtrak by the Numbers").

This was a time of many changes to the Hill lines.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, February 12, 2017 2:53 PM

1198 (in Big Sky Blue) was rebuilt into BN business car St. Croix River (with add-on stainless steel corrugated sides) in 1972, retired in 1981. Passed to a couple of charter operators as North Star, used in the 2004 presidential campaign.  Owned by Ohio Railway Supply. Orville OH at the Orville Railroad Heritage Society.

1199 was retired, and presumably scrapped, some time around 1972, still in GN Green.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 3:17 AM

I f those cars were removedforom service in 1968, then I m,ust have met Phil Hastings in 1968, not 1969, just before removal from service.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 6:23 AM

Even though the Winnipeg Limited train was discontinued in 1968, the cars seem to have remained in GN/BN service until 1971 at least.  The Western Star would be a natural assignment, so 1969 is quite plausible.  1198 got Big Sky paint, then BN paint after becoming "office car" St. Croix River.  The Stainless fluting was apparently applied after the car was sold by BN in 1981 and renamed North Star.

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Posted by bill613a on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 5:01 PM

IIRC the WINNEPEG LTD lasted as a separate train until the BN merger in March of 1970.  After that it ran as a Grand Forks-Winnepeg stub train connecting with the WESTERN STAR at Grand Forks.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:46 PM

The Winnipeg Limited almost made it as a BN train.  Last run on Feb 3, 1970, still GN.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:39 PM

Any chance that Amtrak could restore this service some day?

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:18 PM

I'm going to answer my own question..it's been almost 50 years since the last international service on this route so on the one hand it's an obvious NO way...but maybeeee....it's been long enough and it's time has come around again. 

There, I've said nothing!

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:22 AM

rcdrye

The Winnipeg Limited almost made it as a BN train.  Last run on Feb 3, 1970, still GN.

 
It was replaced by a Grand Forks-Winnipeg train that connected with the "Empire Builder" and/or "Western Star", I'm not sure which.  This train did last until April 30, 1971.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by NP Eddie on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:27 PM

ALL:

CSS is correct that the train became a Grand Forks-Winnipeg "stub" train. The Western Star was re-routed via Grand Forks to accommodate the Winnipeg passengers. At that time the Star was re-routed via NP to St. Cloud to serve the St. Cloud to Fargo line. The NP between Northtown and St. Cloud was known as the "joint" or "Elk River" or "east side" lines as the NP owned the westbound track and the GN owned the eastbound track. I can comment more on that arrangement if anyone wants to know.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:57 AM

So my meeting weith Phil Hastingd might have been in 1969 after all?

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Posted by NP Eddie on Thursday, February 16, 2017 11:22 AM

ALL:

First of all I want to thank those who responded to my question. I always enjoy the many comments from our fellow railfans!

Last evening I talked to fellow railfan and long time friend John Goodman (GN-BN-AMTRAK employee from the Twin Cities. I now have the answer to the equipment on the Grand Forks-Winnipg train. The GN rebuilt two X-SLSF coaches to contain a galley (one was a standby car). Supplies for that car were forwarded on the Western Star to Grand Forks. The train was an E7A, a baggage car, the coach-galley car, and two 1200 series coaches. Yes, this train did continue until Amtrak took over.

Again, thanks to all for putting pieces to this old puzzle.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, February 16, 2017 1:20 PM

Ok..now I'm a wee bit somewhat confused..exactly what was the last date that passenger service ended into Winnipeg? Did Amtrak run into Winnipeg even for a short while? Was VIA involved? 

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Posted by NP Eddie on Thursday, February 16, 2017 6:12 PM

ALL:

On Amtrak day the Grand Forks-Winnipeg train was gone. As information, John Goodman and I have been good friends since our teenage years on the old Minnesota Railfans Association. The GN freight and passenger crews got off at Noyes, Minnesota and a Canadian National crew took the trains into Winnipeg. Because the GN owned the Seattle to Vancouver, BC line, the GN crews did operate their trains into Canada. I have a GN motive power distribution sheet from the 1960's indicating which locomotives were assigned to which division. The Cascade Division listing includes about 6 to 8 locomotives and about four cabooses that had an "*" indicating that they had duty paid for international service. I don't know how the Canadians handled duty for passenger cars and locomotives.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:36 PM

I don't know how GN handled engines in Manitoba.  The CN/GN line was jointly owned, and was also used by the Midland Railway Company of Manitoba, which owned some of the yards and other facilities shared by CN and GN in and around Winnipeg.  Soo Line handled Winnipeg trains as if CP leased the units for the portion of the trip from Noyes to Winnipeg.  When the Soo's FP7s arrived, they were initially replaced by steam at Thief River Falls until the lawyers got the deal worked out to include them as well as the steamers.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, February 17, 2017 12:23 PM

Rob:

The "Winnipeg Limited" went from St. Paul to Winnipeg with GN power. Only the RPO was setout at Noyes, Minnesota to be returned to St. Paul the in the evening. I don't know if the RPO was turned at Noyes or not. Noyes will does have a turning facility, probably a "Y".

 

My suggestion is to locate one of the many books that John Strauss, Jr. wrote. He was a traveling passenger rep for the GN for many years. One of his books (volume 4 or 5) deals with the mini streamliners that the GN had. I can't find those books in the three  county libraries in the north metro area. Volume 3 has excellent information on the Empire Builder trains.

A side bit of information-GN Color Pictoral Volume 1 (long out of print) indicates that the GN purchased Canadian built switchers for the Vancouver, BC yard.

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Posted by bill613a on Saturday, February 18, 2017 9:06 PM

The best you could hope for with AMTRAK is that they initiate a thruway bus or  a regional carrier were to step in.  A real longshot would be if VIA were to drop a sleeper or two off at Winnepeg and convey it to Grand Forks to connect with the EMPIRE BUILDER. With the timekeeping problems of the CANADIAN it would be a challenge.  A real OTB option would be if the CANADIAN ran east of WINNEPEG thru the Twin Cities and Chicago and then non stop over the ex-GTW to Toronto and Montreal. There would be border issues but nothing that couldn't be worked out. 

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, February 18, 2017 9:36 PM

Love that route but sending the Canadian that way will never happen. Politics, Unions, Northern Ontario screaming blue murder, you name it. A new service/train from Winnipeg to Detroit-Windsor/Toronto/Montreal via Twin Cities and Chicago would be a dream.  About as much chance as rebuilding the CASO. 

However...thanks, great suggestions, ...at least you're thinking!

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Posted by bill613a on Monday, February 20, 2017 10:03 PM

If Amtrak and VIA could get it together they could initiate  Chicago-Detrit-Toronto service by coordinating ATK trains 350 & 353 with VIA trains 76 & 71. They already jointly run the MAPLE LEAF.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 10:30 AM

They ran a joint Chicago-Toronto day service via Port Huron/Sarnia as the "International".  Each carrier contributed a set of equipment to the operation.  I'm not sure when the through service was discontinued.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 10:47 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

They ran a joint Chicago-Toronto day service via Port Huron/Sarnia as the "International".  Each carrier contributed a set of equipment to the operation.  I'm not sure when the through service was discontinued.

 

I do not recall the date either--but in 1997 my wife and I rode from Toronto to Chicago in Superliner equipment. When the customs inspectors came through in Port Huron, we were asked one question: "You two hitched?" This ease was matched when we arrived in Vacouver from Seattle twelve years later--we were at the head of the line, and I do not recall what we were asked, but we did little more than pause before we were allowed to proceed. Two years later, when we stopped on our way from Montreal to Rennselaer, the inspector did not even ask for the list of what we had bought and were carrying into the U.S. Had we been profiled?

As I recall, the train was discontinued over difficulties with the inspections.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 11:34 AM

I remember a comment in "Trains" that a man (US citizen) felt harassed by a US Customs Inspector when he re-entered the US. That man brought a "Trains" magazine with him to tell the inspector that he enjoyed train travel.

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:40 PM

The International was discontinued in 2004..took this from London Ontario to Chicago that late spring. It had Superliner equipment arriving from Toronto when I got on in London. . The train discontinuance notices were posted on the ends of the cars inside and on some doors. End of that month. I think it was April. 

It sort of still exists, but not really. 2 seperate trains.  VIA goes to Sarnia and Amtrak leaves from Port Huron...you have to get across the border yourself. 

The border agents, at and from the bridge crossing, had to drive in from there to meet the train. Do not know what they did the previous 100 years but somehow it suddenly became a problem. I heard they were worried about terrorists and the tunnel. Things got kinda weird after 911. I quit bringing my N-Trak modules across the border around the same time. All those capacitor discharges, relays and myriad of wiring for track and accessories would freak out the border guys real bad. Terrorist threats and countermeasures, preventative actions, screwed everything up and still do. 

They hauled an Asian gal, in her 20's, off the train that day. Saw her lead away outside, from my window, in cuffs.

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