north american cities witih only preWWII PCC's

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north american cities witih only preWWII PCC's
Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, January 03, 2015 11:35 AM

In addition to Brooklyn, Baltimore, and San Diego, Pacific Electric's system, although LA had post-WWII PCC's on LAT.

Vancouver and Montreal had only wartime PCC's, all diverted by the Canadian government from Toronto

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, January 03, 2015 6:07 PM

Dave, didn't Public Service Co-ordinated Transport operate PCCs in Newark NJ prior to the war?  Or did they come later?

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, January 03, 2015 9:29 PM

PSNJ operated "all-service-vehicles" gas-bus-trolley-bus hood-in-front vehicles to replace streetcars, gas buses, and deck-roof heavyweight streetcars, no lightweights and no PCC's through WWII.   The PCC's came second-hand from the Twin Cities when PSNJ was unsuccessful in getting Newark to pave the City Subway line for new dual-mode buses and was forced to preserve rail service.  In WWII, PSNJ still operated two disconnected rail division, the Hudson, centered on the Hoboken Elevated, six routes, including two wartime lines that did not use the elevaed, and Newark, centered on the Subway, with five lines all running into the subway.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, January 04, 2015 5:20 AM

more details (thought you would ask?)

Hudson Division.  A multi-track loop elevated terminal just north and connected to the Lackawanna Hoboken Terminal.  Underneath, on street level, abandoned tracks indicated there were also local steetcars at one time that did not use the elevated.  The elevated ran west over the street boardering the Lackawanna, for about a mile, and then turned south, ramping down to street level and a short stretch of prw just over the border of Hoboken with Jersey City.  There were about four or five side-platform sidwalk level, elevated stations in addition to the terminal, each about two car-lengths long.  The Jackson line, usually run with single-end cars, ran the full length of the elevated, continued on prw and streets to a loop inside the building that still exists(?) dirrectly over the PATH Journal Sq. station and then south on Jackson Avenue to a large shop, yard, and carhouse complex in the Greenville(?) section of southern Jersey City.  Just beyond the turn to the south were ramps to the surface for the Oakland line, which made a loop on the surface crossing the main highway approach to the Holland Tunnel, with the crossing at two different locations and the south end of the loop about one block south of that main road.   Also run with single-end cars.

Just before the turn to the south were the two ramps, one for each direction of course,, for the Union City and Weehawken lines which went north to Union City on street double-track.  In Union City, the line of that name made a loop around the downtown aria, while the Weehawken line had double track on one side of the loop, running on the street to the hill above the West Shore Terminal, and then on the side of the road ramping down to a loop at the terminal.

 

The two wartime lines were Federal and Western Electric(?) and both served Westinghouse and Westelrn Electric plants reached via electrified ex-frieght tracks connected with new tracks to the partly restored double-track in-street main line to Newark from Exchange Place and both used double-end cars.

Federal ran from Exchage Place and the other from Journal Square, partly using the Jackson tracks.

Newark Division to come.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, January 04, 2015 7:18 AM

Newark Division:  All the remaining lines used the subway and had the southern terminal in Penn Station's basement, as at present. The 7 line was the subway line, with double-end cars, ending at a station names Franklin, with a single pocket track and platform.  I believe, even at present, the only grade crossing on the line, now possibly with crossing gates and flashing lights, but then just a regular traffic light, is Bloomfield Avenue.  The last Newark Div. line to be bussed turned left, to the west, at this point, with a flat double-track junction and ran far out in the middle of Bloomfield Blvd. beyond Bloomfield to Caldwell, where there was an off-street loop and shelter.  About midway between the subway and Caldwell, at Bell St. or Bell Avenue, there was the large Bloomfield car house, with a loop, and some rush-hour cars turned back there.  PSNJ constructed a TT loop and demonstrated a GM standee-window dual-mode to try to sell the city on the subway pavement.

Ramps off the subway, which can still be seen, were for the Orange Avenue line, Central Avenue (first to be abandoned) and Orange Avenue via Market St, at Market St.   Central Av. also required double-end cars.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, January 04, 2015 10:49 AM

Wow!  Thanks for the response Dave!  You continue to amaze!

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 18, 2018 5:39 AM

Some Brooklyn PCC pix not previously posted, the 7th Avenue line, southbound, on Prospect Park West.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, October 18, 2018 5:40 PM

Something you might be interested in David, there's a former Public Service PCC at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.  according to my last issue of "Railpace" magazine, it's in operating condition and capable of carrying passengers but is in need of body work.  The photo in the magazine was interesting, the from end is in classic Public Service Coordinated Transport grey, however the majority of the body is still in faded NJ Transit white with "disco" stripes. 

I'll have to get up there for a look one of these days!

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 19, 2018 2:01 AM

Has it already been regauged for the wide Baltimore streetcar gauge?

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, October 19, 2018 2:55 PM

Dallas's small double-ended PCC fleet were wartime air-electrics, essentially the prewar design, though delivered in 1945.  Some survive in museum fleets, and a couple are active, though modified, on Boston's Mattapan line.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Friday, October 19, 2018 5:59 PM

daveklepper

Has it already been regauged for the wide Baltimore streetcar gauge?

 

That's a good question, the article doesn't say.  I'll have to do a little research on this, maybe see if the museum website has anything to say on the matter.

I did some checking, and from what I can gather if that former Public Service PCC is running at the museum then it was (or was altered to) the museum track gauge of 5' 4 1/2".  Since the nucleus and theme of the collection was Baltimore streetcars to begin with that's the way the tracks were laid.   Also, in the photo caption for that particular PCC it states (as of 2017) the "GE electrical equipment won't talk to the Westinghouse trucks" so I'd have to assume the trucks were changed.  If they're running it now obviously they've solved the problem.

Anyway, here's some websites...

The museum site itself  https://www.baltimorestreetcarmuseum.org

The Wilipedia site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Streetcar_Museum

And a very comprehensive railfan site http://www.railfanguides.us/museums/bsm

None have all the "nuts-and-bolts" information I'd like to have but all complement each other pretty well.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 20, 2018 3:34 PM

Before moving to Jerusalem, I did have a chance to visit the Baltimore museum.  Its only a five-minute walk from the PRR/Amtrak station and was well worth a visit.  I think I rode a Baltimore PCC and possibly also their Baltimore Peter Witt.  A very well-run musuem.  Also had an oporunity to ride the light rail line, much of which is on the old PRR Baltimore Northern line, and is scenic.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 20, 2018 4:15 PM

daveklepper
... the light rail line, much of which is on the old PRR Baltimore Northern line ...

Isn't that "Northern Central"?

Baltimore & Northern was important in the development of United Railways, but that's more than a century ago.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, October 20, 2018 5:21 PM

Firelock76
the "GE electrical equipment won't talk to the Westinghouse trucks"

Not that unusual among PCC owners to have mixed setups. Chicago swapped motors among the postwar cars to send the preferred Westinghouse motors to St. Louis Car for the first batches of PCC rapid transit cars (6201-6488) More likely the trucks used were all-electric Westinghouse trucks, not a good match for air-electric GE controls.

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Posted by GeoffS on Sunday, October 21, 2018 5:14 PM

Yes, Baltimore Northern should be Northern Central, Baltimore to

Sunbury PA. Now "Steam into History" from New Freedom PA to

York, PA. NS from York to Enola, and Dauphin to Sunbury.

G

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, October 22, 2018 3:31 AM

Thanks for the correction.  An unusual PRR line,in the midst of electrified territory, but remained under steam and then diesel.

The Washington sections of the major east-west trains used the line. involving reverse operation between Baltimre and Washinton, where, of course", a GG1 was used.

It was mainly a passenger line, with freight moving via the electrified "Port Road," also used by Amtrak.

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