I very much enjoy reading Classic Trains which I'm pleased to say we can buy here in the UK. Superb photos of magnificent engines. One thing has always puzzled me - what is the purpose of the hemispherical indentation found on each 'corner' of US steam (and some diesel) locomotives. The lower photo on p71 of Spring 2014 edition shows it perfectly, just in front of the lower cylinder. Apologies if it is a basic question, but British locos have never had anything like it.
Those are poling sockets. Poling was a means of moving a car which was on a track adjacent to the locomotive by means of a wooden pole one end of which was placed in the socket on the engine and the other end in a corresponding socket on the car to be moved. Poling was dangerous and was discontinued many years ago.
Mark
Truth be told, the statement "was discontinued many years ago" isn't true. if a dropped car doesn't clear, and it can't be runaround, we would pole it in the clear, and of course without poling pockets on the cars or locomotive nor purpose- made poles, improvisation made it much more dangerous than it was way back when.
My last one....pulling an mty, were going to a spur, facing point switch, to clear for a passenger train and work a couple of industries..
The know-it-all, pig-headed, A-- H--- brakeman, set up to be conducter that day, didn't take my suggestion that he put me inside and the car down the main. That was what the regular conductor did and he was equal to the best car-hands in getting the work done and staying out of trouble.
Well, the mty covered hopper, going against the closed side of a sprung frog, didn't clear. I'm, the MU'ed SW1500s and me, are on the main track and the car is part way clear of it....passenger train a'comin'....can't couple to the car.
Found a piece of pipe on the Pacific States Steel spur and, placed between the engine and car, placement precise and delicate.
Then, a punch...run 8, release and reapply the independent to move no more than 10 feet, or risk sideswiping the car....
We're railroading.
One more Ride..... Way out There....
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Oh man! That brings back memories! We used to jerk the whole train by at Bear Island paper company in Doswell. Trying to get a good swing on 'em with a single GP35 was a challenge. Not always successful with a big cut of paper loads. Especially if the brakey left a little handbrake on one of them. The power plant at the mill was normally very accommodating, by lending us a strategic shove with their front end loader.
One day, one of our crews tried dropping 8 loads by at the C&O switch, at the bottom of the hill. They hung up, poling seemed like the perfect solution, but the old crosstie they used splintered and the result was a nice sideswipe! Fortunately, no one got hurt and no wheels hit the dirt. The conductor ended up becoming a trainmaster, and one of the best ones I ever worked for!
If not illegal, it is not condoned nor in operating manuals today.
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I think the ICC banned the practice back in the '60s, perhaps around the same time as riding the footboards on engines or walking the cartops. But old habits die hard.
Pole example on steam tender
Pockets
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
As a kid in the late '50 I remember the DL&W's Dover Drill working the East Siding and the General Box factory in Denville, NJ. They'd give me rides in the engine and caboose around the wye and when they drilled the siding and factory. There were two side by side yard tracks...the siding and the run around plus a facing point siding into the factory platform itself. Once or twice the polled a car and we all, especially me, were told to stand clear and far or get up in the engine or caboose to be out of the way if anything went wrong.
The know-it-all, pig-headed, A-- H--- brakeman, set up to be conductor that day, didn't take my suggestion that he put me inside and the car down the main.
rfpjohnIn defense of effenxrfe, putting a car down the straight has always been the best policy in my experience, even if it makes for an extra move. Cars do have a nasty habit of hanging up in a switch, as stated! The one RF&P SW1500 we had on the road was somewhat of a slug (#91). It made all the right noises, but it wouldn't deliver decent pickup when you needed it. I don't know if this was typical performance for these engines.
As for best policy, it has been my experience that spurs were limited to a much much lower speed than a main line. Again, all the more reason to put the car in the hole and the engines down the main. That is unless you actually need the car out on the main or the spur is straight uphill.
Big Jim,
Your post leads everyone of us who have worked local freights and yard engines to know that you ain't one of us, your knowledge of how an engr works with his train crew or switchmen is non-existent.
This is a digression alert; using his rulebook-given authority, before the term "job briefing" was coined, the condr. or switch engine foreman would say your job is to watch for hand or lantern signals and do what they tell ya' to do.
The condr usually tries the switch when he backs you away to get a run at the switch. "that'll do"
Pinpuller signals he's ready. Condr signals "make the drop" Run 8 toward the switch....
Big Jim, this is where you disgraced yourself, your blatant ignorance displayed like a peacocks ass-feathers. The condr then throws a signal for a pin, and you give a second or so of slack, the pinpuller gets the pin, cutting the car off. It's at its max speed, a downgrade influence could...
After the cut, Run 8 open a good gap between you and the pursuing dropped car.
BigJim, you said the engineer, me, didn't give the car enough speed.
I made another mistake by thinking you were worth an explanation that an engineer doesn't over-rule a signal....unless safety requires.
eften, when arguing a technical point, it is best not to degrade or insult people but simply stick to the technical point. thanks
(You insulted yourself more than Big Jim.)
Concerning making a "drop", "jerking it by" or making "flying switch": One advantage to putting the engine in the hole is that with the inherent tendency of trucks to bind when making a diverging move into a side track, a crew must compensate by increasing the speed of the car. Remember, this is a risky move, anyway. It depends on careful coordination among all crew members. Botch your timing and a derailment, sideswipe or fatality are real possibilities. Putting the engine in the hole means you can drop the car at a lower speed. Once the cut is made, the engine can speed up. The car can not. The faster you have to sling the car, the more precise the timing becomes for clearing and throwing the switch. Up goes the danger factor. Also, often the stopping distance in a siding is limited. Cars on spot, bumping blocks, etc. Engines have really good brakes, usually. Hand brakes on freight cars are less effective. And, yes, as I learned early in my engine service career: Don't interpret the conductors' hand signals to suite your pre-conceived ideas of how the move should be made. Doing something other than what he indicates is going to get him REAL mad, real quick!
RFP Thanks for a really professional and thorough analysis of this problem. Thanks
efftenxrfe,Well, well, well. I see it is of absolutely no use trying to get my point through to you. So, I'm not even going to try. I stand by my comments 100% gained from 40 yrs. of T&E service.
GOOD NIGHT TO YOU SIR!
If you,
bigjim,
You worked 40 years of T&E service on 'roads that condoned engineers ignoring the signal from the crew-member supervising and directing a drop, the signal for "a pin," but expected the engineer to accelerate to whatever speed he thought was correct, before "pinning".....was that your point?
If not, what?
and, bigjim, I'll see your 40 yrs and raise you 2, but only in engine service, not switchman or brakeman, includes 2 yrs 'Nam War, and as a C-6 Fireman, a valuable 1 and a half year stint of telegrapher (Train Order operator), towerman, drawbridge tender, station agent/ clerically doing billing, switch lists, ticket sales......4 yrs RFE, Los Angeles, then Supervisor of Training, Engine Service Training Center, (the title meant: "instructor." sure sounded impressive, tho')
Was that hand signal interpretation your point?..... bigjim?......Really? To justify improvising on the train or yard crew's signals?
Wherever you could do that, did you say, "Toto, we're not in reality anymore?"
Dave Keppler, is that a little bit more gentile?.... more PC?
Um, anyway, did you guys ever see a picture of a poling car? I believe they were a PRR creation form late in the 19th century and featured permanently attached poles hinged from the sidesill of the car. Sort of looked like a transfer hack. Somewhere in the distant (very) past, Model Railroader published plans for one of these cars. If I remember correctly, they were built for yards with a track running parallel to the ladder. The reasoning behind switching like that escapes me. Perhaps someone out there has a photo or drawing of one of these novelties, or at least an explanation of how/why they were used.
OK Eff,we will both try, OK?
rfpjohn Um, anyway, did you guys ever see a picture of a poling car?
Um, anyway, did you guys ever see a picture of a poling car?
Try this: http://www.davevinci.com/PRR%20Class%20S5%20Poling%20Car.pdf
or this: http://books.google.com/books?id=2fh0H0USx-0C&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=Poling+Cars&source=bl&ots=22zvH5aZrv&sig=1JhL0LtqTsSfE0js4veb_fO5-LY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CHY1U-mnKLTQsQS0-IDIDA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Poling%20Cars&f=false
As amazing as it may seem today - back in the day there were industrial tracks that would not support the weight of a engine, these low volume customers would be serviced by poling cars to spot them, when sufficient idlers weren't available to reach the spotting portion of the customers track and it was parallel to the railroads track..
Even on railroad trackage, there were some cases where idlers had to be used place cars in the correct position.
With regard to the discussions on dropping cars. I recall the actions of one railroads president's son that was a Trainmaster. He instructed a crew, against their objections, to make a drop of a car into a industrial siding. Rather than face insubordination charges, the crew performed the action that went against their experience and best judgement - the hand brake on the car didn't permit it's stopping before it had struck several tank cars that were connected to hoses and knocked them off spot and cut the hoses discharging product all over the ground. Crew was then charged for making a unsafe move and 'sonny boy' was transferred.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
,bigjim said
"no use trying to get my point through to you..."
The drop failed, poling solved.
Subsequently, you used my description's adjectives of a brakeman to describe me 'cause, I didn't get the car up to enough speed to clear. Then you suggested I was upset 'cause I didn't get my way with my advice to him. Petulance....
That engineers can't improvise, but must obey, 'cept where safety overrules, signals by, from the train crew, I stated.
How the signal, "Give me a pin" limited the car's speed was explained. As was why putting the car down the main' and the engine inside (on the spur) was the best procedure, a couple of examples, along with mine were presented.
The research on the Pennsy poling car, which inspired the Statement that "it was kinda like jousting with a (goat) yard engine",....priceless.....but
BigJim, what was the point that there's NO use to try to "get my point through to you...?"
Resolve the idea that the engr (me) should have gone faster after the "pin" sign was given; any a concept your post that suggested that exists makes sense....
IS that your point? That you won't obey a signal to you, the engineer, if you think you've a better concept of the situation and its problem's/ solutions...damn the condr's plan's/directions to his crew and expectations of their performance ?
What was, or is your point, the one you said won't go "through?"
You're in a corner....Box your way out....big jim...
"
For those of you who may be looking for a good soap opera, you will not get it from me. It is my own personal opinion and choice that it serves no useful purpose to demean this thread by going off-topic and reply to someone that I said "GOOD NIGHT" to eight posts ago.
What I do find interesting to talk about is railroad switching operations in the early 20th century that led to the need to pole cars (by pole or poling car) in a classification yard in the first place. The safety of operating employees has come a long way since those days!
Just 1 more time, bigjim,
Do you think an engineer should overule a signal from a brakeman or switchman, improvise and run his engine differently than the way the signal commanded?
Like before when I queried you, I include the caveat, no disobedience to the command if safe operation ensues; if risk or hazard is present then an engineer is bound to disobey the endangering command and improvise to mitigate.
Just yes or no to the question (1st 'graph) and I'll dig a hole, to be a grave for the hatchet. Evade anwering again......
Maybe, tho,' you're a (expletive alert: 2 coming) politician/lawyer?
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