Hello,
I´m in search of some special information about the 10 Union Pacific FTT Class 4-10-2 Overland type locomotives (#5090-5099). I read several times that during the late 40s, these engines were all located in southern Nevada and California and working in helper service for both passenger and freight trains mostly over Cajon Pass. And I read that in the early 50s, they were transferred to Kansas, where the last of them finished their career in freight and work train service in 1954. But when I take a look at the Utah Rails website for Union Pacific steam locomotive assignments in 1949 and 1950, it shows for both years that the 4-10-2´s were located in Idaho! So I´m a bit confused now and therefore I would like to know more precisely where these engines have been in service from 1947 to 1954. Do any of you steam experts out there have some more information about that? I tried to find out more on the internet, but information about this much overlooked class is pretty rare.
By the way I have never seen any photos of these engines outside Nevada and California, and it would be something very new for me to see photos of them in Idaho, Wyoming, Nebraska or Kansas! The latest photos of them that I saw show them in helper service on the point of top trains like the City of Los Angeles or Los Angeles Limited in California!
Put "perry union pacific 8800" into the search box at
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/
and you'll get two pics on the LA&SL. Nothing for 8801 or 8802 or 8803, but might as well try the others.
Well I know these photos since a long time, but I´m not interested in them because it´s not the time frame that I´m interested in, and it´s just photos, no other information. It´s really hard to find out more about this class. As far as I know there isn´t even a book existing which deals exlcusively with this class...
De Luxe,
I've only seen two pictures of these engines in service outside the old LA&SL
A double-page photograph in Trains magazine sometime in the mid-50s shows four engines wrestling a freight up Sherman Hill after the lead engine failed due to clogged flues. The road engines were a 4-6-6-4 and a 4-12-2, I believe. The rescue engines sent out from Cheyenne were a 2-10-2 and a 4-10-2. Several railfans witnessed and photographed this extraordinary event, among them the great Richard Kindig. Jim Ehernberger of Cheyenne has the Kindig negatives and might be able to confirm this.
Tom Klinger of Lakewood, Colorado has a negative in his collection by Ed. Birch, of the 5097 in Topeka, Kansas, on a way freight.
I saw several of these engines parked in the deadline at UP's 38th Street roundhouse in Denver in the early 1950s. Even after they were cut up, the tenders remained for years, a sad reminder for me of an engine class I had just missed in service.
Hi Bill,
thank you very much for the interesting info! Now I believe that the 4-10-2´s saw their last service days on the Kansas Division out of Denver and were eventually scrapped there.
Wow! A 4-6-6-4, 4-12-2, 4-10-2 & 2-10-2 pulling a freight train??? ***, that must´ve been quite a delight for sight and ears! Amazing! I wonder how many cars that train had when they needed 4 steamers!
By the way I don´t think that the UP 4-10-2´s were that unsuccessfull like it´s sometimes written about them. They were just not as numerous and famous as the 4-12-2´s. But still, they were in service for some good 28/29 years, so that´s everything else than unsccessfull for me. I still wonder though why the UP staff was not able to maintain them as 3 cylinder locomotives and instead converted them to 2 cylinders engines, while the SP staff obviously had no problem with maintaining their 3 cylincers 4-10-2´s till the end...
It probably took every ounce of tractive effort those engines could muster to get a stalled freight moving again on Sherman Hill. And remember, one of them was not contributing to the effort.
The 4-12-2s had 67-inch drivers and delivered 96,650 pounds tractive effort, which made them good runners on the flatlands and good climbers on the grades -- the equivalent of a 4-6-6-4 -- and probably worth the trouble to UP.
The 4-10-2's had 63-inch drivers,,making them slower, and, at 81,459 pounds t.e., less powerful. Once they were simpled, they were essentially nothing more than a 2-10-2.
Look up that center-spread in Trains, say about 1954. Its' quite a show.
Three-cylinder engines were never popular with shop forces. In desert service like the LA&SL, lubrication problems on the center cylinder and crank axle wouldn't help any. One mechanical officer described the cost of maintaining three-cylinder engines: "like having an expensive mistress at every division point."
On paper the UP ceased steam operations into Southern California by 1949, among the five thousands final assignments were helper service over Cajon Pass, however the FM diesels purchased for this task proved unreliable so steam was reassigned back to So Cal for a few more years of service.
A favored assignment tasked to the five thousands during this period was the Leon Turn between Victorville and San Bernadino who's primary loads were cement, never assigned first class jobs towards the end they served as the primary power on secondary trains with occasion stints in helper service.
As to service in Idaho during this period, I suspect that since the OSL was an oil burning district as well, five thousands were rotated between districts as required or as Los Angeles no longer had the capacity to support steam operations after 1950 rotating them to Pocatello would be plausable given the fact that steam repair faclities were intact and functional at this location. it would also be plausable for UP to assign coal fired 5000's to Kansas to run out their remaining miles where coal was the primary fuel used.
Dave
Bill MarvelLook up that center-spread in Trains, say about 1954. Its' quite a show.
If I only had it I would do it for sure!!!
West Coast Sit would also be plausable for UP to assign coal fired 5000's to Kansas to run out their remaining miles where coal was the primary fuel used.
Sounds interesting! As far as I know the 4-10-2´s got converted from coal to oil in 1929. So it´s quite interesting if they got reconverted back to coal again for their last years in Kansas.
The 4-10-2s remained oil-fired until the end, I believe.
The Union Pacific 4-10-2 comprised of 2 classes FTT-1 and FTT-2. The only member of the FTT-1 was the 8000 and was a coal burner. It was used system wide to test the type on parts of the system. The FTT-2 (8800-8808) were ordered for the LASL originaly for passenger use on Cajon pass. When this didn't work they were then put in freight service where they were a success. With the arival of the 4-12-2 on the system there was a move to standardize parts on the system. I was quite a headache to keep parts at the 2 main shops (Pocatello and Cheyanne) for 1 locomotive. So the 8000 was converted to oil and sent to the LASL and became 8809 to keep the class together and parts for the type at one shop. In the 1940 the maintanance on the engines was mounting up against them, and some thought the type should be scraped. But with the war looming the UP decieded to rebuild them as 2 cylinder locomotives (5090-5099) and were still vaulable locomotives in that capacity. After the war the UP was stating to dieselise the NW and the LASL in a hurry. The 4-10-2 were then spread system wide mainly around the 2 main steam shops, Pocatello, and Cheyanne. In 1947 a coal strike on the UP moved manny oil burners to Cheyanne and the 4-10-2 were found there and Denver to work out there last days. The Pocatello engines were there for the shop witch handeled both coal and oil and several meet the end there.
5 Scrapped at Pocatello
5 Scrapped at Denver
Reprinted in book form were the operating timetables and special instructions. Reprinted by the UP historcal group, they contained listings of tonnage ratings for each division on one cyle of conversion from Daylight Savings to Standard times....
The tables included a "secret sauce." an engine group or class might not have a tonnage rating listed; in those cases the engines were not authorized to occupy that portion of that division.
Does that narrow down the search territory?
Just being authorized doesn't suggest they were used or photo-ed there, but if not authorized, searching there wastes time.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter