I saw a couple of B&O timetables on ebay for the period I'm interested in (1935-1940), but they were "compressed or condensed" tables. It doesn't appear that I'll get my answers from such literature.
Does anyone have a complete timetable for the Pittsburgh/WashingtonDC run that will answer these questions:
1. Did any passenger train traveling east from Pittsburgh stop at Confluence, Pennsylvania? If Confluence was not a scheduled stop, could a passenger expect the be let off there on request?
2. What were the names of the passenger trains eastbound from Pittsburgh and what were their arrival times in Confluence?
Are there online sources for complete B&O passenger timetables from that era?
Thanks
Don't let the term "compressed and condensed" scare you...in terms of public timetables it means that it shows trains at station stops...usually "through" or "main line" trains. Sometimes local or commuter trains might be shown but not all stops but you would look to a commuter or area timetable for complete details. Also, I think sometimes it indicates to employees that it is not an official operating schedule but that they should refer to employee timetables for all stations scheduling with and without stops, plus other locations, block stations, etc.
Ebay is a good place to look for public and employee timetables; check the ads in Trains and Classic Trains for dealers in memorabilia like timetables, books of rules, etc.; go to flea markets, train shows, etc. I didn't look at your inof Mile132, so I don't know where you live, etc. But check for local railroad societies both model and historical, too, and ask around...
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I'm in northern Michigan, not exactly a hotbed of railroad activity though we have one small line going through town.
My interest in trains is just starting to develop, so I appreciate all of your suggestions. If you have the time and inclination, possibly you can explain the difference between public and employee timetables.
Official Guides will probably have the info you want; if no one else answers your questions I have Guides for 1935-1939. August 1937 is as good a date as any for you? If not, choose another year.
Don't worry (yet) about differences between timetables.
Public timetables are published with the scheduled times trains are due at particular stations, showing connections, accommodations, fares, and other information the public may want or need. Old form employee timetables showed the schedules of passenger trains, dead head trains, second and third class trains, with employee stops, times by offices, towers, block stations, etc. of no importance or interest to the public; plus the timetables gave further information as to speed limits, grade crossings, rules in effect, special instructions, and so on. Today's emp[oyee timetables have instructions but not schedules, more often like an extension of the books of rules. There are Employee Schedules today which have the non public information but not the instructions as yesterday...
Tim, I'm curious to learn about these Official Guides. August 1937 would be a perfect date, as a matter of fact. Whatever you can offer will be appreciated. Pittsburgh to Confluence is my primary interest at the moment.
I don't know if lines other than B&O made that run or not. There might have been locals operating out of the Mon Valley who made more frequent runs and passenger stops at Ohiopyle, Indian Creek, and several other smaller settlements along the Youghiogheny River.
I know the B&O tracks ran through Confluence, but I don't know it that line actually made passenger stops. One owner of the compressed timetable said Confluence was not listed, but I don't know if that person was looking in the correct part of the timetable.
Thanks for your assistance. I hope you all will excuse my ignorance about correct terminology
The Official Guide was a monthly that tried to show all passenger train schedules in the country-- in the 1930s it would be a bit more than two inches thick. I'll look, but I assume in 1937 there was at least one train from Pittsburgh that made at least a conditional stop at Confluence. (Might take me a couple days, tho.)
The March 1937 Official Guide shows four eastbound and four westbound trains making scheduled stops at Confluence. One was the Connelsville - Cumberland all stops local. The other three eastbounds were all from Pittsburgh or points west of there.
#8 The Ft. Pitt Limited (Chi-NY) stopped at 11:32 am.
#16 The Blue Ridge Limited (Chi-Balt) stopped at 2:58 pm.
#18 The William Penn (Pitt-Wash) stopped at 2:23 am.
In addition to the mainline trains there was a mixed train that ran on the branch between Confluence and Kendall.
Mark
In April 1937 the Fort Pitt quit stopping at Confluence.
The August Guide (sched dated 25 April) shows eight trains eastward thru Confluence, five of which don't stop. The William Penn (Pittsb-Baltimore via Washington) had a flag stop at 0223; it left Pittsburgh B&O station at 0010. The Blue Ridge Ltd (Chicago-Baltimore via Washington) left the Pittsburgh P&LE station at 1145 and stopped Confluence 1358. All these times are EST.
Then the Connellsville-Cumberland local that stopped at 1421.
If you want more info feel free to ask, and don't bother apologizing for not knowing it already. If we think the question's too stupid we can ignore it.
KCS and Tim,
Thanks for that useful information. I've got to look into getting one of those Guides.
Is there any chance that someone alive today knows what locomotives the B&O was using at that time on those runs?. It would be especially useful to know about the Blue Ridge Ltd. I seem to recall reading that the B&O was among the earliest to go over to diesel. Is it likely that steam was still being used on that Pgh-Balt run in 1937?
Was the Connellsvile-Cumberland local also a B&O train? What power was likely used there?
B&O got their first road diesels fairly early all right, which means 1937ish. By the end of 1937 they had several diesel passenger engines-- maybe none at the beginning of 1937. Safe bet the local was steam powered.
Far as we know all the trains we mentioned were B&O.
Is it likely that the B&O Museum in Baltimore would have specific knowledge about the diesel/steam question on specific lines and trains going that far back (1937)? Or were records never kept?
We assume no one has records showing which trains had which engines between which points on a given day in 1937-- but we're no experts.
It seems the EAs and EBs started arriving in mid-1937; B&O ended up with 12 units, say six locomotives initially. Aside from that earlier prototype unit (which was on the Alton then?) we assume B&O had no other road diesel locomotives in 1937-38.
After my last post I searched "Blue Ridge Limited B&O" and found an interesting Wiki article. Don't know if it's factual or not, but take a look. It claims the Blue Ridge ran with steam until well after WWII. Thanks for helping me fill in the history on this run.
Incidentally, are the CD versions of the Official Guide worth owning if one is interested mainly in the content and not antique value of an original copy? I see numerous ones listed on ebag for as low as $12. Who's the best supplier for this sort of thing?.
Mile132 Incidentally, are the CD versions of the Official Guide worth owning if one is interested mainly in the content and not antique value of an original copy? I see numerous ones listed on ebag for as low as $12. Who's the best supplier for this sort of thing?.
I own a number of CD versions of the Official Guides for different years and highly recommend them. The hard copies of the OG's are bulky and the older ones are often in pretty rough shape. The CD's are easy to store and I find the ability to increase the magnification very useful particularly when looking for locations on the maps of the different RR's.
I buy my CD's from Don Hensley who is a reputable supplier and does a good job of scanning to create his CD's. You can view his offerings at www.taplines.net. Scroll down a ways on the far right side of the screen and click on "e-bay". Single month/year CD's are priced at $12 which is an excellent bargain in my opinion.
By the way I'd like to welcome you to the CT forum and hope to hear from you often in the future. As you've probably already surmised there's a wealth of information that can be learned from the forum and the many participants are glad to share their knowledge of a particular subject with one another.
timz B&O got their first road diesels fairly early all right, which means 1937ish. By the end of 1937 they had several diesel passenger engines-- maybe none at the beginning of 1937. Safe bet the local was steam powered. Far as we know all the trains we mentioned were B&O.
When the B&O got their EA diesels they were assigned to the carriers feature trains - The Capitol Limited between Washington and Chicago and the National Limited between Washington DC and Washington, IN. These runs permitted the engines to protect both schedules out and back on a daily basis, with major service time available at the Eastern terminal. When more diesels were received (the E-6's of 1940) the National Limited's diesel run was extended to St. Louis and secondary trains between Washington DC, Chicago & St. Louis received diesel power. Those secondary trains would have been Nos. 7 & 8 to Chicago (The Shenandoah) and Nos. 3 & 4 to St. Louis (The Diplomat). This would be the extent of passenger diesles for the B&O until the arrival of the E-7's after WW II.
The primary power for all B&O steam passenger trains were the P class Pacifics. Classes P-1 through P-7. The 20 President Pacifics that the road received in 1927 were the last steam passenger engines purchased and they were classed as P-7 and were numbered 5300 to 5319. Eng 5304 was streamlined for the Royal Blue in 1937 and temporarily classed as a P-7a. It returned to being a class P-7 when the streamlining was removed. Mechanical enhancements were fitted to the engines over time and they became P-7b and ultimately P-7c's. For the streamlined Cincinnatian that began service in January 1947 between Baltimore and Cincinnati, engines 5301-02-03 & 04 received streamline treatments for the train and were classed P-7d. Mechanically the P-7c and P-7d were identical under the streamlined skin. The P-7 class engines were the last steam engines the B&O used in passenger service until all passenger service was dieseled. The P-7d's remained on the Cincinnatian and remained streamlined after it was changed to a Cincinnati - Detroit run in 1949 and until full dieselization of passenger operations in 1956
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Mark,
Thanks for the welcome and also for sharing your opinions and experiences with the CD Guides. I'm going to buy one just to see what the things look like. I'd enjoy having an original hard copy but for the time period of interest to me, they're probably scarce and pricey.
It's been great fun getting started with this thread, and I'll say "thanks" to all for sharing your knowledge. My only concern is becoming a serious railroad fan and thereby opening up a whole new chapter in my life at a time when most men my age are closing out the final one or two.
I hope to be posting additional questions soon.
BaltACD,
Thanks for that enlightenment. In due time I suppose I will better understand how this wealth of knowledge has been preserved and from what sources it derives. In the meantime, what's the best place for me to find good photographs of the equipment you describe?
Mile132 BaltACD, Thanks for that enlightenment. In due time I suppose I will better understand how this wealth of knowledge has been preserved and from what sources it derives. In the meantime, what's the best place for me to find good photographs of the equipment you describe?
My family has had a continuous employment relationship with the B&O and it's successors since 1910 to present.
The best online source for pictures for fallen flag railroads is http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/.
There are a number of books that have been published over the years concerning various aspects of B&O operations. A couple that spring to mind the pair of books authored by Henry Stegmaier (sp) concerning post WW II passenger operations, one on the route of the National Limited (ie to St.Louis as well as the Louisville-Detroit operations) and one on the route of the Capitol Limited (ie to Chicago as well as Cleveland, Detroit and Wheeling). Another authored by Herbert H. Harwood details the Royal Blue line from Baltimore to Philadelphia and New York from it's inception in the 1890's through the end of passenger service in 1958 and beyond. These books are most likely out of print, however they should be available through E-bay and other on line venues. There are any number of other books identifying various aspects of the B&O's history and operations.
Mile132I'd enjoy having an original hard copy [Official Guide] but for the time period of interest to me, they're probably scarce and pricey.
Check out "Anatomy of a Timetable" on my website: rrpaper.com
B and O's first EA road diesels were assigned to the Capitol Limited and the National Limited, the fleet leaders. It's highly unlikely a secondary train would have diesels in that era.
Not from the 30's but the 50's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV0-2xvmguY
I have a copy of the reprints of the June, 1916, and January, 1930, Guides. My only complaint concerning them is that they have the so-called "perfect" binding, which means that all of the pages are glued to the spine--and the spine of each one is broken about in the center. I also have a copy of the reprint of the June, 1893, issue; since it does not have as many pages, it is in better condition, despite being bound in the imperfect manner. When later issues were reprinted, I was strapped for funds, so I did not buy them.
Johnny
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