First let me clarify that I'm not necessarily saying that Salamanca is the greatest RR town ever. I'm making the point that of all of the towns and cities covered in nearly all of the Railroad publications, Salamanca has never been featured on its own merits. Salamanca is the only city in the U.S. located nearly entirely on an Indian Reservation, and one of the smallest cities in the United States with a population that never exceeded 10,000 people, yet three class 1 RR's had stations here, the B&O[BR&P], Erie, and Pennsy, and two had fairly large classification yards here. There are three brick stations still remaining here, and two Railroads still come through with freight every day. At one time the Erie was dispatching trains to 4 divisions of the RR here, and the BR&P had 3 divisions of trains coming and going. There were two turntables the Erie had a 120' TT to handle their Berkshires, and the BR&P had a 90' TT which was adequate for their smaller steamers, but they also had a wye for their Mallets. Actually, up until 1945 when the turntable was expanded, the Erie would get trackage rights onto the BR&P Salamanca branch to wye their Berks. Here are a few photos to give you an idea of what was here. First, the Erie yard circa 1940:
Next, the B&O[BR&P] yard in 1958:
These yards were about a mile apart connected by the BR&P Salamanca branch.
There were 4 stations here. This is the BR&P East Salamanca station now used by the Buffalo and Pittsburgh RR:
The BR&P also had a downtown station across from the Erie yard on Main St. This is now the Salamanca Rail Museum:
The Erie station with a dispatchers office, division offices, passenger facilities, and the Railway Express Agency office:
And finally, the Pennsy station on the south side of town:
The Pennsy followed the Allegheny River on the south side from Olean NY to Oil City Pa on the Salamanca branch. This branch was abandoned in 1963 when the Kinzua Dam was opened and flooded the PRR right of way.
Salamanca was home to thousands of Railroaders up through the 1960's Four generations of my family were B&O men. My Father was the last B&O Agent at East Salamanca. There was a rather friendly rivalry between the B&O and Erie men here, you were either from an Erie family or a B&O family. Both Railroads had shop bands, baseball, basketball, and bowling teams, the BR&P YMCA even had a bowling alley in the basement. In 1923, Salamanca had a horrific fire that destroyed half of the business district around Main St. The city fire dept was one of the first buildings to be engulfed by flames rendering the department useless. The BR&P and Erie fire departments were the first on the scene, and were credited for halting the destruction thus saving many stores, homes and businesses.
I personally am not a writer, so there is little chance of me being able to write an article on the city, but I would assist a writer who might be up to the task.
-Stan
Your answer to "why never" is in the rest of your post as all is written in the past tense. It did have a huge railroad base with the original Erie from the east to Dunkirk followed by the line west to Jamestown. The B&O's BR&P cut north and south just east of the Erie station while the PRR came from the southwest and paralled the Erie into Olean. The Erie and the B&O had yards and roundhouses and huge, beautiful stations, too. The PRR actually seemingly passed through, eventually on trackage rights until the big Kinzua Dam flooded them out of the picture. But, again, it is all in the past tense and the unique things about Salamanca have eroded into that past. Niether station poses with same grandure today, the round houses are gone, and weeds fill the spaces once called rail yards. The most unique feature of the whole place to me was the huge wooden water tank at the East Salamanca (the B&O) station which collapsed within its cooperage by the end of the 70's. The Native Americans did try some antique centers, a museum in the Erie station, and now a casino just west of town. But really, it never was able to carry enough of its railroad heritage into the present...as you mentioned, it was native property, not public, nor private, not government owned. Your pictures present a good argument for, but time has long been against it.
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Henry, I thought I was on the "classic" trains forum. I'm pretty sure most of the articles here are about railroading past. I don't know where you got your info about the Senecas setting up anything in the old Erie depot, I've been a RR historian and Salamanca resident for over 50 years and I have worked with the Seneca Iroquois Museum on Info regarding the many Senecas who worked for the B&O and Erie but never a museum or historical exhibit there. We have a nice Rail Museum in the BR&P station on main st, and it has a nice exhibit of the Seneca Railroaders that I set up using the large amount of historic data we retain there. As for the state of Salamanca today, I agree there is little left and two of the stations are in rough shape but you could say that for many former great RR towns like Sayre, Pa for instance. The Rail Museum where I volunteer 3 days a week features some great artifacts from Salamanca and the surrounding area including a lot of BR&P memorabilia as well as some nice Erie items including two rare New York Lake Erie and Western lanterns and an Atlantic and Great Western lock and key among many other great items. We also have a great caboose exhibit including one of the last Pittsburgh and West Virginia cabooses that Norfolk Southern graciously donated in the early 1980's. I'll say it once again, I'm not calling Salamanca the greatest RR town, I'm trying to make some people aware of what Salamanca was.-Stan
I've heard of Salamanca, mainly because of a 1947 photograph of the Erie turntable at the Library of Congress website.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ny/ny0400/ny0488/photos/123143pv.jpg
Excerpt from The Story of Erie by Edward Harold Mott (1901)
SALAMANCA, Cattaraugus Co., N. Y. From New York, 415 miles; Dunkirk, 45. Settled, 1865 ; incorporated, 1878. Population, 5,000. Manufacturing and railroad centre. 7 churches ; 5 schools ; 3 newspapers; 12 hotels; 2 banks; hospital; building and loan association; library; gymnasium. Named by James McHenry for the Marquis of Salamanca, Spain, a liberal contributor to the building of the Atlantic and Great Western Railroad. Salamanca is built entirely on the lands of the Indian Reservation, which are held under enabling Congressional legislation by long tenure of leasehold. Salamanca came into existence with the building of the Atlantic and Great Western Railroad, now the Nypano Division of the Erie, which has its eastern terminus at this point. At that time the site of the present Salamanca was a tangled swamp. The settlement was a mile west of the present station, and known as Bucktooth, now West Salamanca. The first settlers in Salamanca were greatly hampered by the difficulty of securing satisfactory leases of ground to build upon, because of the lack of legal authority vested in the Indian proprietors to make them. After a long effort legislation was at last obtained doing away to a great extent with this difficulty, but it was not until a few years ago that the present beneficial legislation was procured through which the citizens were warranted in making such improvements as the importance and steady growth of the place demanded. Besides the Erie and its system, Salamanca is on the Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburg and Western New York and Pennsylvania railroads.
About 15 or so years ago there was a museum in the Erie Station and the E. Salamanca BR&P was in disuse except maybe for some MOW or signal dept. stuff. About that time there were one or two multi dealer antique shops plus several other smaller ones in the downtown area in an attempt to revive business there. Since then I have been told the antique shops are no longer as prosperous as they were then and the Erie station project has fallen on hard times. I also heard the museum at East Salamanca has opened and is doing better. The Casino is on the west side of town. An economic problem there is that NYRT17/I86 flies by on the south side of the river so traffic does not get into Salamanca like it once did. While great for moving traffic, interstate highways in bypassing downtowns mean people do not have a chance to sample local fare.
Henry,you are mistaken on the Erie depot at Salamanca. In the early 1980's Conrail closed the station and shortly thereafter an off duty fireman noticed smoke coming out from under the upper roof line and the Salamanca fire dept saved the building. Since that time the station has been boarded up and there has been nothing in the building since. In 2005 I took a photo of the Salamanca sign and unknown to me, as scrapers were abandoning the last of the Erie yard, a Gentleman from Meadville paid the scrapers to take down the sign for him. I would have saved it for the museum if I knew it was going to be stolen anyway. Last year, representatives from the Seneca Nation approached us for blueprints of the station in an attempt to save it. We haven't been able to locate them as of yet, but we're hopeful that we can help them save it. Getting back to your post, there is a large antique mall located on Main St that is doing a great deal of business and if one is looking for RR memorabilia, you can find a lot of it there. There is no museum at East Salamanca, the Buffalo and Pittsburgh RR owns and uses that station for crew changes. I promise you that this is fact as I live two blocks from the East Salamanca Station, and I spend three days a week at the Salamanca Rail Museum (google it please) in the old BR&P downtown station across from the abandoned Erie station.Your account sounds like a made up Wikipedia entry.- Stan
I am glad to hear the Antique Mall is doing well..but I am not making things up ala Wikopedia. I think my aged mind is playng tricks and the Erie station as a museum was in fact and was probably back in the 80's. I remember now the report of the fire and my thoughts of horror at the time knowing the museum attempt that was there...I distinctly remember me and my wife going through the museum. Another thought is that what I percieve as the Erie station is actually the BR&P Salamanca Station and that I never saw the Erie station? Perhaps. I'll admit to not getting into Salamanca since the mid 90's shortly after the four lane bypass was completed.
Henry, I agree that it was the BR&P station you had visited. One thing, we have only been closed one year [2006] when a 62 year old whacko set fire to our main entrance. We were fortunate that the fire department was on the scene in under 10 minutes of the alarm, and kept the fire contained to the area around the door. However, it took the entire 2006 season to get the station repaired and cleaned up. Other than that brief time, the Museum has been open every year from April 1st to January 1st since the grand opening in 1984. We are presently open on Tuesday to Sunday from 10:00 to 5:00. I am there on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays this season. Probably the best part of our collection is our Railroad employees magazine collection. We have all of the Erie magazines from 1905 to 1963, all of the BR&P magazines from 1912 to 1931, and over half of the B&O magazines. A gentleman in Nevada is building a PDF index of every person noted in the Erie magazines, so if you have say an uncle who worked for the Erie in say Hornell, I can check the index, pull the magazine, scan the article, and email or print it. Since there are considerably less BR&P magazines, we have decided to create a similar index for these. Here are a couple of pics of items we have on display. Most of these are from my private collection that I have been building since the late 1960's:
I have to reply here to the post by wanswheel as well. The photo from 1947 taken by famed Erie photographer John Long is probably the most famous Erie pic of Salamanca. The story of Erie by Edward Mott only paints half of the picture of Salamanca, and when published in 1901, much of what Salamanca was to become is missing there. The BR&P did not build the East Salamanca yard until 1904. Most of East Salamanca, while within city limits, is off the reservation. It was after 1904 when coincedently, the new Erie station was built that Salamanca grew in population enough to apply for its city charter. I read an interesting article from a 1904 Cattaraugus Republican [the Salamanca newspaper] about the lack of rooms for the many people flooding the town to fill positions on both Railroads that year. I'll post more on Salamanca here in the next few days.-Stan
Fascinating, utterly fascinating! B&O 1952, your museum looks like a class act! Is it possible to post some more pictures, say a "virtual tour" for those of us that may never get to your neck of the woods? Or does your museum site show a bit more?
Firelock76, thanks for the comments! I'll give you a virtual tour here, but you can also go to our Facebook page. My oldest son has been uploading a lot of photos to the site.
To start, I have to post this most incredible photo that was donated to the museum this morning. This is NYLE&W 34, a broad gauge saddle tank 4-4-0 taken in Salamanca probably on or before 1880. This is the actual cabinet photo. Anyone familiar with the Erie RR knows that images of broad gauge locomotives are extremely rare, and this is the first time this image has been shown to the public. It was found in a garage here in Salamanca this week! the couple that found it have assured me that there is a lot more where this came from.
Here is one more early shot of the Erie, probably around 1890 after standard gauging. The most interesting part of this photo is not the structures, but the abandoned turntable pit in the center of the photo. This was the old Atlantic and Great Western turntable that was adjacent to the New York Lake Erie and Western RR turntable. Prior to the merging of the two Railroads to form the Erie Railroad system, both lines needed their own shop facilities here. We have diagrams of the yards as they were, but until this photo was found, no images of the A&GW TT. Today, the abandoned Erie station is on this site.
We have two items from the Erie predecessors on diplay, a brass lock and wrought iron key from the A&GW RR, and this classic brass top bell bottom lantern from the NYLE&W RR.
I'll keep posting items to this thread over the next few days. Next, I will cover the Erie and BR&P at the turn of the century, and some early photos of the BR&P predecessors.
I received a late post last night from a friend who is researching the cabinet photo of the 34, and it turns out that it is not a NYLE&W locomotive, but an A&GW loco. There were two A&GW 34's, we havt to find out which one was converted to a tank engine.
Thanks so much for posting those additional photos! I don't have a "Facebook" account so I don't think I can see the museums "Facebook" page without it, but I've enjoyed what I've seen so far. AND I'm green with envy over that bell bottom lantern!
Interesting how that photo of the saddle tanker came out of a local garage. I guess it kind of makes you want to pick up the whole town of Salamanca, turn it over and shake it, and see what falls out! Who knows what other kinds of treasures are out there?
I have heard of Salamanca, my Father spent much time there, he was a fireman/engneer for the B&O, working out of Rikers Yard, Punsxutawney,Pa. Both my Grandfathers worked for the BR&P also, along with cousins, uncles and soforth. Dad used to say the whole famn damley worked for the RR. Found your web page(like it very much) but I can't find your facebook page. Thanks for the pics, will make a trip to see your muesum in the near future. Tim
Stan,
Great information and photos.I've never heard of Salamanca before, until now.The photos show quite a large facility at Salamanca.
Thank you,
Ralph-Train-O
Ralph, You're welcome and thank you for helping make my point! I had planned on extending this conversation earlier, but my father, a 38 year veteran of the B&O took ill, and we lost him last Friday after a two month bout with pnumonia. He wanted me to continue making my case for Salamanca, so here we go. On January 28th 1878, the Rochester and State Line RR reached Salamanca from Rochester. The RR was built by Rochester area buisnessmen to provide a new route to ship coal from the Pennsylvania coal fields to their city. It never fulfilled this wish, but it paved the way for what turned out to be a solid, well run, and pleasant little railroad. After bankruptcy, the R&SL was reformed into the Rochester and Pittsburgh, and later the Buffalo, Rochester, and Pittsburgh railway. The BR&P is shaped like a "Y" with the Buffalo division and Rochester division converging 14 miles north of Salamanca at Ashford Jct. Originally, the BR&P wanted a classification yard in the rather broad valley at Ashford, but could not aquire the land from the local farmers. They did have shop facilities in Bradford, Pa some 18 miles south of Salamanca, but they were crammed into a rather tight space, and with no room for expansion, the Railroad had to find a new location for it's classification yard. For that reason, in 1904 East Salamanca yard came to be. The yard is located at the junction of the original mainline to downtown Salamanca, and the new mainline south through Bradford, Dubois, and Punxsutawney, Pa. The former became the one mile long Salamanca branch connecting the Erie and BR&P [B&O] for many years. East Salamanca was quite busy in the early 1900's right up through the second world war. Coal from Pa, and WVa filled the yard tracks along with general freight where 3 tricks of yard crews made up trains for Buffalo and Rochester plus interchange traffic with the Erie:
Along with the class yard there was a quite large engine facility here with a 30 stall roundhouse, and backshop facilities which included a set of Whiting screw hoist jacks that were used to raise up the large 2-8-8-2 mallet locomotives, the largest on the BR&P:
Also, East Salamanca was the location of the BR&P's concrete plant:
Loading concrete telephone boxes for crews:
this is just a small image of what was salamanca. I'll post more in the next few days.
I always enjoyed driving through Salamanca, especially back in the 70's when the giant B&O/BR&P water tower was still standing. The third railroad in town was the PRR coming up from Warren, PA to Olean connection with its Buffalo-Emporium line; when Kinzua Dam was built the line was gone and traffic was handled by the Erie. But, did the PRR ever effect an interchange with the B&O/BR&P anyplace in the vicinity of Salamanca?
Henry, There was an interchange at Riverside Jct located seven miles south of Salamanca where the Pennsy crossed the BR&P and Erie Bradford branch at grade. The concrete interlocking plant was identical to the four other BR&P towers of concrete design, the most famous being the tower at Ashford Jct. These towers are very similar to ones used on the New Haven RR. Not just an interchange, the Pennsy also had trackage rights to Bradford Pa on the BR&P from this point. They ran commuter service between Olean and Bradford with a McKeen car up until the depression. They also maintained a small yard in Bradford only accessible by using the BR&P. Here is a look at a Westbound[northbound] B&O freight crossing the diamonds at RJ prior to the abandonment of the Pennsy in 1963. You can see the BR&P and Erie bridges across the Allegheny River in the distance. One other thing, the Pennsy and Erie had no interchange here:
After the Dam the PRR used the Erie into Olean...but from where or did the PRR just give up Warren to Olean at that point?
And BR&P concrete towers look much like DL&W concrete structures, too.
Henry, once again you have me confused. The Pennsy never used the Erie because had their own line through Olean. It goes from Emporium through Olean to Buffalo. The Salamanca branch connected with this line until 1963 when, because of Kinzua Dam, the Pennsy chose to abandon the entire branch. The Pennsy line through Olean crossed the Erie mainline at grade at X tower located in the northeastern corner of the city. Both lines are still in and the Western New York and Pennsylvania RR has control of both. X tower is long gone, another victim of Conrail, but the display panel remains at the Salamanca Rail Museum today.
I was under the impression that the PRR gained trackage rights on the Erie after Kinzua Dam, at least from the Salamanca area to Olean....
Henry, I never saw any Pennsy movements on the erie here nor have I seen any documentation or photos of this, and the few industries the Pennsy switched here were on the other side of the river and completely separated from the Erie, making it physically impossible. I do have some images of a Penn Central FP7 under the old Erie coal tipple, but these were taken in early Conrail days.
To B&O1952, my deepest sympathies on the loss of your father.
Thank you.
Here is a picture of Dad working as an Operator at East Salamanca in 1967. I spent many weekends here with him.
This is me working at the same desk as a Conductor in 2001:
Dad was a Navy veteran and a 38 year veteran of the B&O/Chessie/CSX. He qualified as an operator in January 1955 at Bradford Pa, but spent most of his career in the East Salamanca yard office. He once told me that he only sold one passenger ticket ever, and he thought he gave the passenger a round trip ticket for one way fare. Oh well. When he worked as a relief op, he covered a lot of weekend jobs here. That's when I wiuld hang out with him. I stiil have the sights and sounds of a once busy yard office in my memory. The sounds of the teletype maching clicking away, the old Seth Thomas regulator ticking on the wall, the F7's idling with an occasional movement of the SW9 or a set of road engines. Looking towards the powerhouse from the office window, I can still see the steam leaking everywhere, and the black smoke belching from the huge stack. The wreck train was still there as well. Crane X-51 was a 120 ton brownhoist with a utility flatcar, an old baggage car, and a beautiful old open ended observation for the crew. There was also an old tender off an old B&O E-60 [ex B&S] locomotive used to supply water for the crane:
By 1971, things began to disappear there. First the roundhouse, then the powerhouse, the turntable, the last water tower, the wreck train, and eventually in 1997, the remaining yard tracks, the backshop, storehouse, and blacksmiths shop. All that remains now is the passenger station and a few tracks which are still used. Across town the Erie met a very similar fate.
Trains still roll through occasionally, and the museum keeps Salamanca's Railroad history alive, but I sure miss the old dats here.
Hi there Stan (If I may),
I greatly enjoyed reading your posts about Salamanca and I wanted to say cheers.You inspired me to write my first post in the CTM forum. I am researching James McHenry and the A&GW, a friend (Marquis de) Salamanca whom the town is named after. (as mentioned in Edward Harold Mott's work)
I am relatively new to US railroad history (studying it for 1-2 years, but learned quite a bit.. I'm hooked on it now ) but I hope to write a book on the subject of McHenry and the A&GW over the next few years, perhaps you may find it of interest.
I'll be sure to mention Salamanca in tribute to your efforts/quest to raise its profile and its relevance as an iconic RR town.
I'll be happy to read anything you may know on the topic and found your photos most interesting also. Keep up the good work with the articles.
If I visit the US can you recommend the best places to visit to aid my research on McHenry and the A&GW? I plan a visit to the States at some point (I'm based in Ireland) in late 2014-early 2015.
Gonna go and read about the Salamanca RR Museum now. Your collection looks great too! Thanks again, and no need for modesty, you write very well indeed! Keep up the excellent work.
ps. My belated condolences on the passing of your father. He sounds like he was a great railroad man. My respects to his memory.
A couple of things:
I worked as an EL clerk in Akron before migrating to Seattle and the BN. Those sturdy, last forever Erie mileposts had the letter S above the mile number. Couldn't figure out what the S stood for until the chief clerk informed me that it stood for Salamanca.
Speaking of chiefs... I read somewhere that when the Erie was being build west and came to the Salamanca area, they had to buy the land from the tribe. Of course, the RR guys tried to low-ball the price defending the offer by saying that the land was no good as it was a swamp. The chief defended his asking price by pointing out that the land was pretty good for a railroad. Is this a true story? I'd hate to think that railroaders would exagerate or even make up stories. (HA!)
As to the Kinzua damn swallowing the Pennsy line- the government compensated the Pennsy by paying for 6 U25Bs (2500-2506). Since PRR was to order the units, the had every option offered by GE on the units such as dual controls. (I'm surprised they units didn't have reversers made of 24K gold!)
There are some fine color photographs of the BR&P/B&O facility in Vol. 2 of Morning Sun's books on the BR&P. Another wonderful source of info on the railroads/history of that area are Pietrak's books, especially the one on the BR&P. It convers the relationship (platonic, I'm sure) of the BR&P and the Erie, Kinzua viaduct (RIP), and the narrow guage lines of the area. He has 3 other books convering the PS&N, B&S, and Pennsy's predecessor (NY&P?). The books are out of print and were fairly pricey to begin with, but once in a while one of them will show up on Ebay and other sources of RR books.
During a long visit to Ohio in '84, I made a pilgrimage that followed the former EL from Akron to Starruca Viaduct. I made stops in Sharon, Meadvilly, Corry, Hornell, Gang Mills, and Binghamton along the way. I meant to also stop in Salamanca, but accidentally missed it zipping by on NY 17. I'm still kicking myself for that lapse.
A big shout out to the museum volunteers in Salamanca (and elsewhere). I'm a docent/volunteer at the Northwest Railway Museum in Snoqualmie, WA. Most small museum's (especially RR museums) because barely eke out an existence as funding is always a challenge. A particularly difficult responsibility is maintaining (let alone restoring!) locomotives and rolling stock. If it weren't for the hard work and dilligence of volunteers, the museums and their treasures would only exist in photographs. Please support you local (RR) museum!
Old hogger's adage: "You're only one inch from being on the ground at any time".
OS
I've enjoyed this thread hugely -- and I've never been near Salamanca.
However, all us older fans and rails have our Salamanca equivalents, and should comfort ourselves that there just wasn't room for all of them in a modern industry -- and that their passing is the price we had to pay for today's vibrant railroad scene.
I saw a bank or a elvated right of way in Salamanca S Side would that have been the Pennsy?
Stan, if you're still out there, I most certainly have heard of Salamanca. My roommate at St. Tikhon's Seminary was Fr. Stephan Meholick who is from Dubois, PA.
His aunt's husband worked for the B&O right there in Salamanca, so it's quite possible he knew your late father. I can't remember his last name, but it was something very Polish. I also remember young Stephan rode the cab of a B & O steam locomotive in the 50' s.
Fr. Stephan married my late wife's niece. He has been in the San Francisco area for years. When I call him for Christmas, I will ask his uncle's name. I met the man, but that was over 40 years ago.
No doubt about it. Salamanca was a great railroad town.
Can anyone (Wanswheel?) provide a photo of former President Theodore Roosevelt speaking at the Salamanca depot in May of 1912?
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