Helper Heaven

[cefinkjr]

The subject article in the Winter 2020 issue really grabbed my attention.  The information provided was great but, as usual in such cases, raised a bunch of questions:

1. Just where is (or was) Phoebe, VA?  I haven't been able to find it on any map I have.  I suspect it may be a place name known only to the railroad and may have another name known to the general public (and cartographers).
2. Were engines turned before returning to Roanoke from Phoebe or did they run in reverse for  60+  miles?
3. What was the typical length of trains moving empties west from Norfolk?  I'm assuming that the power was typically a Class A.  Is that correct?

Those questions are operational questions and are, of course, directly related to the N&W.  I have another question though that would apply to all roads delivering any bulk commodity to tidewater for export but N&W's practice might be instructive.  That question is, how were individual cars billed?  Every loaded car moving on a US railroad has a way bill directing the railroad(s) handling that specific car where the car is to be delivered.  I'm wondering what that important piece of paper (or electronic image) looks like when the contents of the car are to be exported.  Who is the consignee?  Is the vessel specified?  Is the ultimate foreign destination indicated?

As soon as I post this, I'll probably think of a few more questions but these will do for now.  

[daveklepper]

One question I can answer:   Engines were NOT turned but ran backwards down the grade.

[cefinkjr]

OOPS.  That was, of course, the Winter 2010 issue, not Winter 2020.  Besides having fat fingers and a new (to me) keyboard, I claim the time of my original post as an excuse.

Dave: you said engines ran "backwards down the grade".  I'm clear on that between Blue Ridge and Boaz, the eastward ruling grade of 1.2 % but that was just 9 miles.  What I'm questioning is the mallets coming off the Norfolk trains at Phoebe.  It was 61 miles back to Roanoke.  Did they back that far?  It's quite possible although some railroads (or unions?) would have forbidden the practice as a matter of safety.

[Deggesty]

cefinkjr

The subject article in the Winter 2020 issue really grabbed my attention.  The information provided was great but, as usual in such cases, raised a bunch of questions:

1. Just where is (or was) Phoebe, VA?  I haven't been able to find it on any map I have.  I suspect it may be a place name known only to the railroad and may have another name known to the general public (and cartographers).

Phoebe (mile P0.0 & N189.7) was the east junction between the passenger and the through freight lines at Lynchburg. Forest (mile N214.5 & P22.4) is the west junction) It is 7.8 miles west of Appomatox, and just east of Concord, which was on the passenger line. I found it in the SPV atlas of Appalachia and Piedmont. The N line has been taken up from Concord (just west of Phoebe) to Halsey ( a little bit east of Forest)

[daveklepper]

That is a good question, and they may not have been turned at Phoebe, but at a point father east.  And it would have been good sense not to run these locomotives light for that distance.   Most railroads in the steam era preferred to double-head a freight in moving power rather than to run engines light long distances.  Often when engines did run light they ran two or three together in a group, pointed properly.  This is from personal observation; others may have observed different practices.

[Deggesty]

It could be that there was/is a wye at Phoebe, since it was the junction between two lines. The 1984 Norfolk Division timetable I have does not show any facilities for turning at any station.

[timz]

I'll check the topo maps to confirm, but the online aerial suggests there was a wye at the junction

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=37.3444,-78.96346&spn=0.004017,0.006877&t=k&z=17

[BigJim]

Timetable notes that there was a wye at Phoebe. There was also a wye at nearby Kinney Yard in Lynchburg.

The 1984 Norfolk Division timetable I have does not show any facilities for turning at any station.

Johnny,
That is because the purpose built wyes for steam locos were taken out after diesels took over. There is still a wye at Kinney Yard that sees everyday use because of train operations between N&W's Kinney Yard and Sou's Montview Yard.

[cefinkjr]

Thanks for the information about Phoebe and mallets returning to Roanoke.  Based on that information, I'd bet that N&W turned them at Phoebe for the run back to Roanoke.  "Turning" in this case probably didn't include any more servicing than taking water,

Anybody ready to answer the other questions in my original post?

Regardless, I'd like to add a general question about the N&W: What impact did WWII have on N&W traffic patterns?  Were troop trains routed over N&W?  What about oil trains from the southwest?  What was the impact on export coal or coastal domestic delivery of coal?

[tomikawaTT]

cefinkjr

Anybody ready to answer the other questions in my original post?

Regardless, I'd like to add a general question about the N&W: What impact did WWII have on N&W traffic patterns?  Were troop trains routed over N&W?  What about oil trains from the southwest?  What was the impact on export coal or coastal domestic delivery of coal?

Since the Hagerstown connection was a major north-south link, the N&W scheduled freights on the Shenandoah Valley route ran in as many as ten sections - loaded with cargoes that weren't moving in coastal sea traffic due to the threat of German U-boats.  I would imagine, but cannot prove, that petroleum products were a major component of that traffic.

Not from personal knowledge of N&W, but of maritime business practices, coal loads were probably billed to some commodities broker and scheduled for delivery to a specific ship at a specific port.  It was very improbable that the overseas destination would be specified, or even the overseas business connection that would eventually pay for the entire transaction.

Chuck

[BigJim]

Since the Hagerstown connection was a major north-south link, the N&W scheduled freights on the Shenandoah Valley route ran in as many as ten sections - loaded with cargoes that weren't moving in coastal sea traffic due to the threat of German U-boats.  I would imagine, but cannot prove, that petroleum products were a major component of that traffic.

If I am not mistaken, there was a Vanishing Vista color postcard that showed a tank train heading north at the north end of the siding at Cloverdale, Va. during WWII. I am told that there were as many as 24 pool crews working the freight runs. That is in addition to locals and passenger service.

[cefinkjr]

tomikawaTT

... coal loads were probably billed to some commodities broker and scheduled for delivery to a specific ship at a specific port. 

Thanks for the info and the educated guess.  I'll bet there is/was a lot of diversion involved here, too; right up to the day before scheduling a block of cars to be dumped (in the case of a facility like Lambert Point with little [any?] ground storage).

Diversion has always been a headache for railroads.  I recall carloads of scrap metal on NYC/PC that literally ran around in circles for days before actually being unloaded.

West Coast perishables were also commonly diverted with a car load of oranges, for example, seldom being delivered to the eastern destination shown on the original waybill.  The original consignee, as like as not, didn't even have a place to unload oranges; he just bought carloads of oranges, etc. for resale en route.