What is that large cranked wheel on European steam engines ?

[Al Licause]

Hello,

I was recently viewing the Burt Lancaster movie "The Train".

I noticed that just prior to starting the engine, the engineer gives this large wheel several turns and I believe they did the same upon stopping.     Can anyone tell me the function of this control and why we don't see them on steam engines in the US or do we ?

Al

 

[Semper Vaporo]

Probably the "Reverser"... the 'Johnson Bar' in U.S. parlance.  Some U.S. engines had a wheel like that but no many.

[ironhorseman]

I concur, most likely the reverser. Played many hours of train simulator, some cabs of some steam locos I downloaded use the wheel instead of a lever. Some railfans that make these computer models are sticklers for detail as much as any model railroader. Prompted me to do some research on it and found wheels were used for reversers on some steam locos. Also seen the wheel in some steam engines in a museum in Germany when I was stationed in that country. Only have 1 pic, though, from a cab of the steam loco. Will post later.

[ironhorseman]

Let's see if I can get this photo thingy right. I found 2 pics.

The first one is of a smaller loco, a switcher (shunter) type. Don't remember the wheel arrangement. It carried it's own tender box (no detached tender).

This next one is from a bigger loco, either a 4-8-4 or 4-8-2 (sorry, only had a 3/4 angle and not a full side  shot). Number 043 100-7.

These were taken at the Auto Technik Museum at Sinsheim, Germany this past March.

http://www.technik-museum.de/

If you want to see some exterior shots of their locos I'll post them later.

BTW: "The Train" ... great movie!

[Al Licause]

Thanks to all that replied.    As it happens I was speaking with an English gentleman in a local hobby shop yesterday and he also suggested that this wheel was the reverser.

It makes sense but there are two scenes in the movie that somewhat contradict this theory.

At one point they are moving the engine from the shops to a distant location when they are attacked by an aircraft.....for those unfamiliar with the movie, it is set at the end of WWII in France.   To evade the attack, Lancaster who was piloting the engine openned full throttle in an attempt to rush to a tunnel.   When entering the tunnel, he closed the throttle, cycled the breaks then pulled another lever which reversed the drivers and then openned the throttle running the drivers in reverse to further stop the engine and take cover in the tunnel.   This reverser wheel was not used.

Then at the end of the movie, he again enters the cab of the engine and begins shutting down the engine as it had been derailed and the train abandoned by the Germans.    He again turns this wheel......why would he do so if he had no intention of moving the engine ?

Perhaps the scenes are technically inaccurate, but in any case, if you have not seen this movie then by all means, get a copy and view it.   Fantastic trains scenes with lots of steam !

Again Thanks

 

[Al Licause]

RE: The enclosed pictures......the wheel operated in the movie was larger perhaps by double that size and was positioned lower such that the operator would have to bend down to operate it.

So I'm wondering if it had another function ?

 

[selector]

Mark Newton will know the answer...I'll send him a PM.  But I'll throw in my guess and suggest it might be the blower control.

As we say in the military over the radio, "Wait. Out."

[nickinwestwales]

Might poss. be the loco (as opposed to train ) brake.....believe that would be a wheel acting on a screw to the blocks rather than the pump for the air/vacuum system

we await clarity

ATB Nick 

[txhighballer]

I have to concur in that it is indeed the reversing wheel. Canadian locomotives also had them in some cases.

[marknewton]

G'day Crandell,

A lot of locos throughout the world have a screw reverser, operated by a handwheel, as opposed to the lever reverse that many US locos have. The idea being that more precise adjustments to cut-off could be made than with a lever, and that the mechanical advantage made moving the valve gear easier in the days before power reversers were developed.

(Having run locos with both types of reverser, I can't say I have a clear preference for one or the other. Lever reverse is bloody marvellous when you're shunting, but screw reverse has a better "feel" when you're out on the road and running at speed.)

But in the case of the locos in the movie "The Train", I'd have to look at the movie again before I'd make a comment. IIRC, at least one of the locos Burt Lancaster drove was a compound 4-6-0, and in typical French fashion it had two reversers, so the that the HP and LP cutoff could be adjusted independently.

(EDIT) The locos seen in the film were former Est engines, somewhat modified when they taken over by the SNCF. In modified form they had one reverser wheel operating the two reach rods, with a change lever fitted to the screw for independent adjustment, or the HP/LP cutoff could be operated together.

There are also fairly substantial handwheels for the injector steam ranges, compressor stop valve, blower, feedwater heater pump, and the main steam stop valve - the "turret" in NA terminology.

FWIW, I believe that Mr Lancaster was actually taught the basics of firing and driving for his role in the movie. Some years back I was talking to Doyle McCormack of SP 4449 fame, and he commented that Mr Lancaster seemed quite at home on the loco during the filming of "Tough Guys".

Anyway, when I get a chance I'll have a look at the movie, and post again with my thoughts.

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Might poss. be the loco (as opposed to train ) brake.....believe that would be a wheel acting on a screw to the blocks rather than the pump for the air/vacuum system

No, SNCF engines had Westinghouse or Knorr independent airbrake. Hand or "parking" brakes on French engines I've seen were applied by a handwheel on the tender.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Kootenay Central]

 

                                  .

[ironhorseman]

FWIW, I believe that Mr Lancaster was actually taught the basics of firing and driving for his role in the movie. Some years back I was talking to Doyle McCormack of SP 4449 fame, and he commented that Mr Lancaster seemed quite at home on the loco during the filming of "Tough Guys".

-marknewton

Mark-

According to the DVD commentary, Dir. John Frankenheimer said that Burt Lancaster learned quite a bit about working on steam locos, particularly in the scene where he repairs the engine parts by hand in the shop (after the sabatoge) and again after the hostage situation when he's shutting down the engine. Frankenheimer wanted to show the character still took care of a train even though it was obvious it wasn't going anywhere (derailed). He said he also wanted to show that the character knew what he was doing, paying attention to detail, not just making it up.

[selector]

Mark, thanks for contributing, and to the gentleman who posted about Canadian locomotive hijinks as well.

[marknewton]

ironhorseman

According to the DVD commentary, Dir. John Frankenheimer said that Burt Lancaster learned quite a bit about working on steam locos, particularly in the scene where he repairs the engine parts by hand in the shop (after the sabatoge) and again after the hostage situation when he's shutting down the engine. Frankenheimer wanted to show the character still took care of a train even though it was obvious it wasn't going anywhere (derailed). He said he also wanted to show that the character knew what he was doing, paying attention to detail, not just making it up.

That's interesting to know, as my DVD copy doesn't have any commentary or extras. I love the scene in the workshop where Labiche is re-metalling the big end brasses, and he says to the two fitters, "Hurry it up! We're working on a locomotive, not a pocket watch!" That phrase was a favourite of my old boss when I was working as a boilermaker - he'd seen the movie so often he could recite all of the dialogue from memory! All the best, Mark.

[marknewton]

Al Licause

there are two scenes in the movie that somewhat contradict this theory.

At one point they are moving the engine from the shops to a distant location when they are attacked by an aircraft.....for those unfamiliar with the movie, it is set at the end of WWII in France.   To evade the attack, Lancaster who was piloting the engine openned full throttle in an attempt to rush to a tunnel.   When entering the tunnel, he closed the throttle, cycled the breaks then pulled another lever which reversed the drivers and then openned the throttle running the drivers in reverse to further stop the engine and take cover in the tunnel.   This reverser wheel was not used.

I watched that scene closely, and Labiche does give the reverser a spin. Presumably the engine was up near mid-gear as it belted along, and it only needed a few turns to put it into back gear.

Then at the end of the movie, he again enters the cab of the engine and begins shutting down the engine as it had been derailed and the train abandoned by the Germans.    He again turns this wheel......why would he do so if he had no intention of moving the engine ?

Because Labiche was a good engineman! The poor old thing wasn't going anywhere, but he still took the time to put her in mid-gear, and shut off the damper, lubricator, pump, blower and other accessories. If I was dealing with an engine that was off the road, I'd do exactly the same things. As another poster mentioned, Mr Lancaster made the effort to learn the basics of steam loco operation, so that his character would have some credibility. It certainly works for me.

 All the best

Mark.

 

[marknewton]

selector

Mark Newton will know the answer...I'll send him a PM.

 

Crandell, I'm glad you asked.  I watched the movie this morning after I finished work, and thoroughly enjoyed seeing it again. I'd forgotten how good it was!  

All the best,

Mark.

[mj3200]

Took these at Manchester Museum of Science and Industry:

The wheel and screw assembly-

Which is attached to the valvegear via these linkages-

Inside cylindered locomotive built by The Vulcan Foundry England in 1911 for India.

Hope this helps.

Jonathan

[marknewton]

Interesting photos, Jonathan. That's an SPS 4-4-0, isn't it? I didn't know that there was one in Manchester. What other locos are on display there? Mark.

[mj3200]

Mark,

This is the only other engine I snapped. It's a Beyer Peakock Mallet for SAR. I'm not sure the class of the Indian locomotive, I'm afraid. As for other exhibits there were replicas of Planet and Sans Pareil (sp?) from memory although it's not predominantly railway based rather industry in general.

Jonathan

[The Dude With The Hair]

 Sweet jeebus that thing is huge. I hadn't realized they made garratts that large.

[marknewton]

Yes, the GL is a big bugger, especially considering it's a 3'6" gauge engine! Dimensionally, the biggest Garratt built was the single Russian example, but there were many others that were equally as big as the GLs. For sheer power, the guernsey goes to the East African Railways 59 class, a metre gauge 4-8-2+2-8-4.

If you haven't already seen this site, you might find one interesting.

http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/source.html

I have a soft spot for Garratts - I've fired on our AD60s, and been fortunate enough to have had a play on some others here and there. They typically steam like a witch, and ride very well at speed.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

mj3200

Mark,

This is the only other engine I snapped. It's a Beyer Peakock Mallet for SAR. I'm not sure the class of the Indian locomotive, I'm afraid. As for other exhibits there were replicas of Planet and Sans Pareil (sp?) from memory although it's not predominantly railway based rather industry in general.

Jonathan, I did a bit of research and confirmed that the Indian 4-4-0 is an SPS class engine, as I thought. Great picture of the GL, thanks for sharing it! The next time I'm in Pomgolia I must make the trip up to Manchester, looks like a very interesting museum.

I remember a few years back there was a BBC documentary that recreated the Rainhill Trial of 1829, it featured the Sans Pareil. Now there's an engine I'd LOVE to have a go on!





(For some reason the idea of running a loco wearing a big beard, a top hat and a frock coat really appeals to me!)

All the best,

Mark.

[Al Licause]

Thanks again to all of the great replies.    Didn't think this would generate so much interest.

 I recently played the movie again and took particular note of the use of this questionable control.   Perhaps one of the telling scenes is earlier in the movie in which the resistance is trying to delay the departure of the military train with the armored engine.     One of the other conspirators is at the controls and before backing up his engine he again turns the wheel in question....this time though counter clockwise before backing the engine for some switching manuvers.

 Again we watched the plane/engine chase scene and saw the very brief turn of the wheel which almost appeared to be performed by the fireman, allowing Lancaster to concentrate on the track ahead.

 I"m satisfied knowing that this wheel is the reverser.     

[halford39]

Several locomotives in the US had these wheels,particularily, the NYC Hudsons,Mohawks, and Niagras, C&O Hudsons built in 1942, C&O Greenbriars,C&O Kanawhas from #2700 thru# 2739, and C&O 2-10-4s. The wheels were part of the Franklin Precision Valve Gear control system. The Franklin System worked with both Baker valve gear and Walscherts valve gear.

[selector]

I have been asked to post the following in response to the post above.  The author is an acquaintance who is occasionally here to read, but is not a registered member of the forum.

"The  "Franklin Precision Valve Gear control system" he mentions is nothing more than a power reverser, an air-operated cylinder that raised or lowered the die block in the expansion link on Walschaerts valve gear via the reach rod, or altered the position of the bell crank on Baker valve gear in the same manner.  Franklin power reversers could be fitted with either a wheel or a small lever and quadrant, according to the railroad's specifications. They could also be fitted to engines with any design of valve motion, Southern, Young, or the various forms of poppet valve gear used in the US. 

Other makes of power reversers were Alco-Ragonnet, Baldwin and Hadfield, and again they could be operated by wheel or lever."

 

-Crandell

 

Edit - added "Crandell, it turns out that I'm confused as well - Ragonnet power reversers were in fact produced by the Franklin Railway Supply Co, and not Alco..."

[spikejones52002]

 Burt Lancaster's movie "Trains".

There are several scenes of an engineer turning the wheel on the large  left side. One is Papa Bull as he first started his train.

The scene I liked is where Burt pores the brass for the bearing, breaks the mold, handles it and files one side and pops in for use. Can we say "Superman".

As for wheels in cab. A lot of funtions used valves to control.