New Haven Americain Flyer cars

[cnwfan51]

    OK All you New Haven fans   A question  Just saw on RFD TV A segment on the New Haven in the New York City Mott Haven yards   I noticed a number of trains with American flyer cars and got to thinkiung Did the New Haven have just coaches in the Americain Flyer style or were there diners and pullmnans also?    Thaks Larry CNW FOREVER 

[passengerfan]

The American Flyer cars built for the New Haven were available in coaches, numerous parlor car types dining cars and two Lounge Observations. Thios was true of the postwar versions with the stainless steel panels the prewar Osgood Bradley cars built for the New Haven were in coach and dining. Although the New Haven had several lightweight sleeping cars they were built to Pullman Standard plans. The Pullman Bradley plant also built many of the Gallery cars for the C&NW. Other railroads that operated prewar Osgood Bradley cars were KCS, Seaboard, and several other roads but none were sleepers. The Lehigh Valley's only streamlined cars were two lots of prewar coaches from Osgood Bradley with squared off car ends making them distinctive.

Al - in - Stockton  

[cnwfan51]

    Thanks Al I am fairly ignorante of eastern Railroads growing up in the Mid west .   I got a real education when i was stationed at Aberdeen Maryland in the late 70s and later near Geneva New Yorkn area in the Mid 80s deep in the heart of New York Central. Lehigh Valley / Conrail territory   Thanks Agian   Larry

[daveklepper]

The B&M also had prewar American Flyers.   As I remember, what you call diners, the New Haven called "grill cars."   And they were the only railroad to buy the prewar American Flyers in any variety but coaches.   I don't remember any prewar American Flyer type parlors.  Maybe there were some and all were converted to coaches for WWII.   They had lots of heavyweight parlors, and they and Pennsy did have Pullman staff them until after WWII.   The post-war fluted side versions, were coaches, grill cars, diners, full parlors, and combines-parlors but no combine-coaches.   The parlors originally had 2 and 1 seating instead of 1 and 1, but all went to 1 and 1.   The combines mostly kept 2 and 1.   Some prewar coaches were rebuilt after WWII with the interiors of the postwar coaches, reclining seats and end smoking sections with ailse-facing seats.   These were intended for overnight service on the State of Maine and the Montrealer.   The American Flyers introduced air conditioning to New Haven coaches.   I don't remember any New Haven (or NYC or PRR or B&M) coahces having ice air-conditioning, which was standard on Pullmans and on long-distance B&O coaches during the "classic" (late steam) period.

[SSW9389]

Cotton Belt also had 10 of the Osgood Bradley coaches built in 1937. They were the only streamlined cars on the Cotton Belt and found their way onto the Southern Pacific roster in the 1950s as Cotton Belt passenger service declined.

[daveklepper]

I am not certain if the New Haven American Flyer type grill cars were originally built as such or were converted possibly near the start of WWII.   In any case, when the postwar cars arrived, they were all converted (back?) to coaches, possibly including those with the postwar reclining seat interiors.

[Tom Curtin]

I am not certain if the New Haven American Flyer type grill cars were originally built as such or were converted possibly near the start of WWII.   In any case, when the postwar cars arrived, they were all converted (back?) to coaches, possibly including those with the postwar reclining seat interiors.

They were originally built as grill cars, around 1935.

 They served in that capacity until the postwar stainless steel sheathed grill cars came in 1949, at which time they were converted to coaches.

This is a favorite subject of mine.

BTW, It needs to be made perfectly clear to everybody interested in this subject that the pre-war cars (1934-1938) --- the ones without stainless sheaths --- existed only as coaches and the above mentioned grill cars.

The post war stainless-sheathed cars (1947-1949) were the ones that existed in numerous plans: coaches (103), parlors (25), parlor-lounges (5), baggage lounges (10), baggage parlor lounges (10), diners (10), grills (15), and observation longes (2). 

The postwar sleepers were standard Pullman bodies and did not have the turtle back roof "American Flyer" design.

For everyone interested in this subject you can get an excellent book The New Haven Railroad's Streamline Fleet by Geoff Doughty (TLC Publications, 2000).  It's available from the New Haven Railroad Historical & Technical Association (NHRHTA) at http://www.nhrhta.org 

 Tom Curtin

Controller, NHRHTA Inc.

 

 

[daveklepper]

Were not the baggage-lounges converted to baggage-parlors?   I don't remember ever riding a train with baggage-lounge, but nearly every New Haven GCT - Boston train had a baggage-parlor during the period I did the most riding, 1949 - Amtrak.   However, they were not generally used on the Merchants, Yankee Clipper (which ran with several full parlors, the Merchants running for a while as all-parlor with the obs you noted), or any of the NY - Washington trains in my experience, but practically every other Shore Line train and some Sprignfield trains as well.  They were very rare on any of the overnight trains, but it did happen occasionally.   On many NY-Boston and NY-Springfield runs, they provided the only parlor first-class service.   It seemes that they had more than 10 during most of my riding.

[Tom Curtin]

Were not the baggage-lounges converted to baggage-parlors?   I don't remember ever riding a train with baggage-lounge, but nearly every New Haven GCT - Boston train had a baggage-parlor during the period I did the most riding, 1949 - Amtrak.  

 

Not quite Dave.  Here are the details: as delivered there were 20 cars.  Every one contained a baggage section, one day drawing room, and two day roomettes, and a buffet.  Beyind that, the seating arrangements varied.  Ten cars had lounges, in two or three different seating configurations.  Four of those ten had a phone booth, for the technologically primitive mobile radio-telepone service of that era.  The other ten, which you remember, had a combination of parlor and lounge seating.

The parlors retained their as-delivered configurations all the way into the Penn Central period.

While still now, around 1951 or so, the four phone-equipped lounges, and two other lounges had their baggage sections removed and replaced with two additional drawing rooms.  It turned out the New Haven had underestimated the market for parlor car drawing rooms, an accommodation which had existed all throught the heavyweight car era.  Also, the flagship Shore Line trains Merchants Limited and Yankee Clipper didn't carry checked baggage anyway and didn't need the baggage section.

The four remaining baggage lounge cars by the end of the 1950s were being used as commuter train bar cars, a service in which they continued until the M-2 cars took over the New Haven line in 1973.

I am at your disposal if you want more details on this very interesting subject.

[daveklepper]

Did those in commuter bar-car service have the baggage section removed?

[Tom Curtin]

Did those in commuter bar-car service have the baggage section removed?

No, they had no changes made.

 

Tom

[daveklepper]

So the bar-tender just used the baggage area to store his supplies?   Any attempt to put crew seating or other wise make useful use of the space?

I had experience with New Haven bar cars, including just once an ex-Merchants obs, but never ran into the cars you described just now, just luck I suppose.   I did think the interior decor on the M-2 mu bar cars was just great but was angry at Conn Dot's and MN's supposition that people drinking don't need to look at the scenery!   Incidentally, mostlh very expensive soft drinks, non-alcoholic, for me.

[Tom Curtin]

I don't know what, if any, use was made of the baggage sections on the bar cars.  I suspect none.

I'm glad you had a chance to ride one of the observation cars when it was in bar car service.  By the way, the NH had two of those and both wound up in bar car service.

[daveklepper]

Question for Tom, but first a trip report:

At the end of August, 1949, it was time for campers of Camp Ironwood in Bridgton, Maine (yes, I did see ties and grade of the old Bridgeton and Harrison two-footer, severl times) to return home.  Bus to Portland, whole group on the B&M to Boston, transfer to South Station via what are now the Orange and Red lines with change at what is now Downtown Crossing, and then, the midwestern group to St. Louis, Chicago, and Detroit would wait for the New England States and combined Boston Sections of the Southwestern Limited and Wolverine, while New Yorkers and Connecticut people had the opportunity to ride the Yankee Clipper.   We all had first-class tickets.

The B&M had just droped parlor service on the train we boarded, and an argument ensued, because the conductor placed our entire group in one of the prewar American Flyers instead of the single- reclining-seat postwar Pullman-built lightweigh coach that was on the train.   All he was willing to do was to sign a refund slip for the camp movement, which would not amount to a hill of beans anyway because of the group-through fares.  A single B&M E-7 was power.  After making the rapid transit transfer to South Station (rode the front car on both lines, with the train doors open and grating across to improve ventilation), the group had to wait on the sidewalk while I insisted on photographing the Type 5 streetcar that was reversing in the middle of Sumner Street before its return to City Point.  Then we  boarded the Yankee Clipper, and at the front was an I-5 streamlined 4-6-4.  Immediately behnd were three heavyweight parlors, and our group had the majority of seats on one.  Then came (I thnk) a new grille car, and all the rest of the train were the postwar 8600-seat coaches.   What a wonderful trip.

Now, Tom, what information do you have concerning surviving American Flyers?  Of all types? 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

So the bar-tender just used the baggage area to store his supplies?   Any attempt to put crew seating or other wise make useful use of the space?

I had experience with New Haven bar cars, including just once an ex-Merchants obs, but never ran into the cars you described just now, just luck I suppose.   I did think the interior decor on the M-2 mu bar cars was just great but was angry at Conn Dot's and MN's supposition that people drinking don't need to look at the scenery!   Incidentally, mostlh very expensive soft drinks, non-alcoholic, for me.

The Tip Top Tap cars on the original Hiawatha of 1935 were located at the front of the train and had no windows in the bar area although the table section had windows.

With all due respects, it's an unusual commuter route that has scenery that's really worth looking at.  Anyway, it's usually too dark to see anything for about a third of the year on evening rush hour trips.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

This is about the assignement of the New Haven's "American Flyer" coaches in the early 1950's. The New Haven ran advance sections of the Merchants Limited on Friday and Sunday in the early 1950's so for some reason the Yankee Clipper, one of the New Haven's premier Shoreline express trains, carried the "American Flyer" coaches on Fridays and Sunday instead of its usual post-war lightweight coaches. Does anybody know why the post-war lightweight coaches were taken off the Yankee Clipper on Fridays and Sundays? Further, did the Advance Merchants Limited just carry coaches and a grill car, or did it also carry parlor cars and a dining car?

From 1940 to 1942 the Pennsylvania, the New Haven, and the Boston & Maine ran the East Wind from Washington, DC to Portland, ME. The train was all coach, and it was painted in a cream and yellow color scheme. The dining car was a heavyweight New Haven car, but the coaches were a mixture of New Haven and Pennsylvania cars; the Pennsylvania cars were streamliners with reclining seats (perhaps from the Florida service) while the New Haven crs were the lightweight "American Flyer" cars; I wonder which series of the "American Flyer" cars were assigned to the East Wind, the 8200/8300 series (no reclining seats) or the 8500 series which had reclining seats? 

I went to camp outside of Mystic CT between 1939 and 1944, and since most of the campers were from the Washington, DC area we traveled back and forth between Washington and Mystic on the Colonial Express which was a thru Boston-Washington train over the Hell Gate Bridge route. As I recall we were never placed in one of the New Haven's "American Flyer" coaches on the northbound trip, but we always rode on one of the "American Flyer" coaches on the return trip to Washington at the end of the camp season. Starting with 1942 allo of the trains we took between Washington and Mystic were always hauled by the New Haven's Alco Dl-109 diesels. In fact, I was talking to the station agent in Mystic CT, and he told me all of the first sections of the Shoreline Expresses were diesel powered; this was somewhere between 1942 and 1944. Earlier, David Klepper told us about riding behind a New Haven I-5 in August, 1949. This was indeed a rare occasion considering that the New Haven mostly used diesels on its Shoreline express trains since the early 1940's

[henry6]

The $64 Question: were any "saved"?  NH? B&M? Others?

[Tom Curtin]

Now, Tom, what information do you have concerning surviving American Flyers?  Of all types? 

I don't personally know, but since you asked, I posted this question over on the NHRHTA New Haven forum.  We'll see what turns up.

[Paul3]

RudyRockvilleMD,
The East Wind had PRR, NH, B&M and ACL cars on it during the "yellow car" era.  The NH contributed the Baggage car and the American Flyer Grill car (not a heavyweight Diner).  The B&M is the one that contributed the American Flyer coaches (note that they didn't have skirts, while the NH coaches didn't lose their skirts until after the war).  The PRR contributed P70KR coaches (streamlined coaches with full body diaphrams).  The ACL contributed "North Carolina" or "South Carolina" (IIRC).  These were modernized heavyweights and were unused during the summer months (making them available for camp trains).  The PRR painted all the equipment yellow each summer, then repainted them back to their RR colors after the season.

The NH's I-5's were kept running a full schedule up until the arrival of the PA's in 1948.  There were only 10 I-5's, and two of them were usually kept as spares or in the shop leaving only 8 on a normal day.  These 4-6-4's hauled only the finest varnish on the NH: the Merchants Limited, the Advanced Merchants Limited, and the Yankee Clipper.  Other I-5 trains would be the older express trains like the 42nd Street Express, the Gilt Edge (before the Clipper and the Merchants, the Gilt Edge was the No. 1 passenger train on the NH), and perhaps the Senator or the Federal.  Basically, the I-5's were the hot rods of the high iron, and handled long heavy trains on a demanding schedules (timed to the half minute in some cases) with ease.  DL-109's just couldn't hack the schedule for these kinds of trains, so the I-5's were kept.  The PA's were the nail in I-5 coffin.  FYI: Trivia Note: The I-5's were the heaviest locomotive on the NH, even more than their 2-10-2's and 4-8-2's.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[daveklepper]

The I-5 on the Yankee Clipper in late August 1949 may have been a last minute substitution for a pair of PA's, I just don't know.   But even not knowing about the end of steam on the NH, it wa a thrill for me to see and ride behind that locomotive.  New Haven steam passenger service ended in 1952.  The I-4 Pacifics continued to be used after the I-5's were retired.  A pair of shop switchers, 0-6-0T's lasted at the Bronx electric equipment maintenance facility for almost ten years longer.

The 8600 reclining seat coaches were post-WWII, arriving in 1948 and 1949, and could not have been used on the East Wind.   Ditto the prewar American Flyers (probably the grill cars) that were converted to have interiors similar to the postwar cars.

Still hope to learn where American Flyers remain today.

[Tom Curtin]

What I have been able to determine about cars that still exist

Incorporated into Boxcar Willy's Pub in Hyannis, Mass

prewar coach 8339

prewar coach 1000 (experimental rebuild by the New Haven of one of the prewar coaches in the late 50s)

postwar stainless sheathed grill car, #957 (That's the number I've been told)

Belonging to Railroad Museum of New England and in storage

prewwar coaches 8286, 8341

Incorporated into a restaurant in Brook Park, OH (of all places)

postwar tavern observation car Watch Hill (now there's a find)

Belonging to Connecticut Eastern Railroad Museum at Willimantic, CT

2 postwar 8600-series stainless sheathed coaches. Presumably the museum knows what ones

The following two aren't true American Flyer cars but New Haven followers usually group them in there:

6BR lounge sleeper Pine Stree State. Operable and Amtrak-certifed. Owner unknown.

14 roomette-4 br sleeper Stratford Point. Condition, location, owner unknown

[henry6]

Big THANK YOU for the effort, Tom.

[daveklepper]

Thanks!