A recent TRAINS posting asked about the use of PRR position light signals on the north side of Chicago's Union Station, and that got me thinking about Washington's. (All Chicago's Union Station signalling at one time was all-PRR practice.) The B&O and PRR mains merge about at Ivy City if I remember, and from there south into the tunnel portal south of the station, I remember all signals as being B&O position-light type, except possibly for dwarf signal. Today? I also remember that all tracks in the station had catenary, even those the PRR seldom if ever used, at the extreme west end of the concourse. And all switchers in the steam days were identacle to PRR B-6 0-6-0's, with Washington Union Terminal? Station? in gold in PRR-style lettering on their shiny black slope-backed tenders. And these switchers were kept clean.
I think I only once rode a PRR train to the west from Washington. On trips between Waashington and Chicago or Pittsburgh or Detroit, the B&O was my choice, because I got plenty of PRR riding in and out of New York City. What I don't remember is whether K4 or GG1 powered the western trains out of Washington. Possibly it was always GG1's with a reversal of direction in Baltimore and thus a change of engines for the steam run up to Harrisburg without any time wasted?
Knew that! My question is did they change engines at Baltimore and run electric to Washington. Amtrak, as you know, changed to running its train via the Port Deposite line and ran Harrisburg - Baltimore - Washington behind GG-1's. But I knew the PRR used K4's and then diesels on Baltimore Harrisburg (via York) jobs, the question is what powered these particular trains between Baltimore and Washington?
Unrelated, but you can anser, when was the B&O's old main line, Baltimore - Harpers Ferry, last used for passenger service? Is it at all in use for freight today?
Still hoping for an answer. Was too young to remember family trips to Washington before the PRR electrification was extended south from Wilmington, and I don't remember seeing PRR steam passenger power in Washington Union Station, only electrics, and the Washington Terminal 0-6-0's and steam of the B&O, C&O, and RF&P. Never a K4! Did see PRR steam in Patomac Yard, probably PRR H8 and H10 2-8-0's. Possibly used to Popes Creek?
The steam then deisel operated Baltimore - Harrisburg line through York, used by the major east-west trains, is now partially in use and electrified at 750V DC as the first part of the Baltimore Light Rail system, and is well worth riding for good scenery.
Thanks. That is the answer I needed.
Oh, of course there were Southern green and gold Pacifics at Wshington Union, also, should never forget them. Rode behind them on a number of occasions between Wshington and Charlottesseville, CA. I'd better post of Charlottesseville memories thread soon. Southern and C&O.
daveklepper wrote: Thanks. That is the answer I needed.Oh, of course there were Southern green and gold Pacifics at Wshington Union, also, should never forget them. Rode behind them on a number of occasions between Wshington and Charlottesseville, CA. I'd better post of Charlottesseville memories thread soon. Southern and C&O.
That would be great! - al
Hi all
I'm new to the forum. I'm in the early stages of building an HO layout based on Washington Union and have a bunch of questions. I'm primarily interested in the Southern, and my first big question is did the Southern Ps-4s continue to pull the Crescent under the catenary northbound to NY, or did Pensy electric motive power take over? Or were Southern through-cars shuffled into Pennsy trains?
Thanks, and looking forward to future discussions,
Nick
Far as anyone knows all C&O-SR-RF&P power (steam and diesel) ordinarily turned at Washington. Don Ball's PRR book has a pic of RF&P and ACL E-units at Philadelphia 30th St, but that wasn't the usual.
Many trains got shuffled at Washington, but probably the streamliners went thru to NY pretty much intact? In the 1940s and early 1950s, anyway. But a train like the Havana Ltd would leave NY on the half-hour, shown in the PRR Form 79 timetable as a train for NY-Washington passengers, who probably would need some cars that wouldn't be needed south of Washington.
Also: a given train out of NY might include cars for a couple of trains out of Washington.
This post had rekindled my memories, and you are welcome to enjoy them on the TRAINS steam and restoration thread, beginning with a discussion of N&W A's pulling coal at 70mph. NOT 80 NOT 100, but yes 70.
OK. Trains to the South during WWII: Diesels of the SAL, ACL, and Southern ran through to Wshington Union on The Silver Meteor (lightweight coach train), Orange Blossom Special (heavyweight all Pullman), Florida Special (ditto) and Champion (lightweight coach), and Southener and Tennesean. On most occasions, except for possible switching of head end cars, pulled off and put on by the road locomotives themsselves, all these trains with the exception of the Tennesean, ran through to New York City intact. Even though seats went to waste as people exited at Washington and Philadelphia in particular. A knowledgeable person could often ride these trains northbound from Washington or Philadelphia, with a regular coach ticket during WWII if the conductor wasn't particularly mean, and even throught the timetable essentially said no. The Tennesean was an exception in that much of the time only the Pullmans went through and then often on a connecting or combined train, with the coaches turned at Washington. Most of these trains kept to schedule southbound. Often a special PRR round-top boxcar with modified trucks and signal cable and heat piping was behind the power southbound for war priority freight to bypass Potomac Yard. The Tennesean had heavywieght Pullmans painted silver to match the Budds of the rest of the consist. Northbound these trains were often late, sometimes very late, largely as a result of congestion at the Potomac River Bridge. Only once or twice on a northbound Silver Meteor or Champion, was the diesel taken off in Richmond and an RF&P 4-8-4 put on . But this was normal for the other Floroida trains, such as the Everglades, the Havanna Special (often running in two, three, or four sections!), the Palmetto and the Palmland. Often a late Southener, Champion, or Silver Meteor was simply tacked on behind a regular hourly Washington - New York express, which then loaded on the lower level and left five minutes late to give people time to board near the front of the platform. The GG-1 backed on to the streamliner, the front car the baggage-dorm with the head end stuff remvoved by the diesel in cutting off, with the expresses coaches already attached so only one coupling was needed. On one or two occasons the Southener or the Tennesean was pulled into Charlottesville and on to Washington with a beautiful PS-4 directly in front of the E-units. On the C&O, the power was usually Pacifics, often of the flying pumps variety, and possibly Hudsons showed up but I don't remember them and they may have not registered as different than the other Pacifics. The C&O's Washington and Newport News sections were combined at Charlottesville's C&O (not Union) station and Greenbriars were often used west of there. I do not remember any solid C&O coal trains into Pot Yard nor any articulateds of any type there. Normal power for trains other than two streamliners on the Southern were Pacifics. Most of the non-diesel trains did have some through Pullmans to NY handled in combined trains on the PRR, but not through coaches, except the Havana Special which did advertise through coaches.
After WWII and the delivery of more diesels, the SAL had three streamliners to New York, the Silver Meteror, Silver Star, and Silver Comet, all coach and Pullman, and again all equipment on these trains ran through to NY, some on the Meteor for time continuing to Boston. The ACL had the East Coast and West Coast Champions, and the Florida Speical, now lightweight and using a lot of borrowed equpment. The Orange Blossom Special continued for a few years as a heavywieght all Pullman and then was discontinued. And diesels on the ACL and SAL began runing through to Washington on most trains, inlcuding those remaining heavyweight for a while.
Note that the electrification stopped in the tunnel south of the Union Station platforms. The frieght electrification to Pot Yard was via the freight route that bypassed the station and still does, but without electrification. All passsenger trains runing north from Washington DC had GG-1's on the point, and no Southern steam power ran north of Washington. Diesel Southern and ACL and SAL power was used north very briefly to Philadelphia one winter after WWII when tiny snowflakes got through the GG-1 filters and shorted out GG-1 motors, but this was a one-time event, and PRR improved the filters.
The PRR B-6's that switched Washington Union had "Washington Union Terminal" on the sides of the tenders in small gold lettering, and they were kept clean.
daveklepperThis post had rekindled my memories, and you are welcome to enjoy them on the TRAINS steam and restoration thread, beginning with a discussion of N&W A's pulling coal at 70mph. NOT 80 NOT 100, but yes 70. OK. Trains to the South during WWII: Diesels of the SAL, ACL, and Southern ran through to Wshington Union on The Silver Meteor (lightweight coach train), Orange Blossom Special (heavyweight all Pullman), Florida Special (ditto) and Champion (lightweight coach), and Southener and Tennesean. On most occasions, except for possible switching of head end cars, pulled off and put on by the road locomotives themsselves, all these trains with the exception of the Tennesean, ran through to New York City intact. Even though seats went to waste as people exited at Washington and Philadelphia in particular. A knowledgeable person could often ride these trains northbound from Washington or Philadelphia, with a regular coach ticket during WWII if the conductor wasn't particularly mean, and even throught the timetable essentially said no. The Tennesean was an exception in that much of the time only the Pullmans went through and then often on a connecting or combined train, with the coaches turned at Washington. Most of these trains kept to schedule southbound. Often a special PRR round-top boxcar with modified trucks and signal cable and heat piping was behind the power southbound for war priority freight to bypass Potomac Yard. The Tennesean had heavywieght Pullmans painted silver to match the Budds of the rest of the consist. Northbound these trains were often late, sometimes very late, largely as a result of congestion at the Potomac River Bridge. Only once or twice on a northbound Silver Meteor or Champion, was the diesel taken off in Richmond and an RF&P 4-8-4 put on . But this was normal for the other Floroida trains, such as the Everglades, the Havanna Special (often running in two, three, or four sections!), the Palmetto and the Palmland. Often a late Southener, Champion, or Silver Meteor was simply tacked on behind a regular hourly Washington - New York express, which then loaded on the lower level and left five minutes late to give people time to board near the front of the platform. The GG-1 backed on to the streamliner, the front car the baggage-dorm with the head end stuff remvoved by the diesel in cutting off, with the expresses coaches already attached so only one coupling was needed. On one or two occasons the Southener or the Tennesean was pulled into Charlottesville and on to Washington with a beautiful PS-4 directly in front of the E-units. On the C&O, the power was usually Pacifics, often of the flying pumps variety, and possibly Hudsons showed up but I don't remember them and they may have not registered as different than the other Pacifics. The C&O's Washington and Newport News sections were combined at Charlottesville's C&O (not Union) station and Greenbriars were often used west of there. I do not remember any solid C&O coal trains into Pot Yard nor any articulateds of any type there. Normal power for trains other than two streamliners on the Southern were Pacifics. Most of the non-diesel trains did have some through Pullmans to NY handled in combined trains on the PRR, but not through coaches, except the Havana Special which did advertise through coaches. After WWII and the delivery of more diesels, the SAL had three streamliners to New York, the Silver Meteror, Silver Star, and Silver Comet, all coach and Pullman, and again all equipment on these trains ran through to NY, some on the Meteor for time continuing to Boston. The ACL had the East Coast and West Coast Champions, and the Florida Speical, now lightweight and using a lot of borrowed equpment. The Orange Blossom Special continued for a few years as a heavywieght all Pullman and then was discontinued. And diesels on the ACL and SAL began runing through to Washington on most trains, inlcuding those remaining heavyweight for a while. Note that the electrification stopped in the tunnel south of the Union Station platforms. The frieght electrification to Pot Yard was via the freight route that bypassed the station and still does, but without electrification. All passsenger trains runing north from Washington DC had GG-1's on the point, and no Southern steam power ran north of Washington. Diesel Southern and ACL and SAL power was used north very briefly to Philadelphia one winter after WWII when tiny snowflakes got through the GG-1 filters and shorted out GG-1 motors, but this was a one-time event, and PRR improved the filters. The PRR B-6's that switched Washington Union had "Washington Union Terminal" on the sides of the tenders in small gold lettering, and they were kept clean.
Al, why the repetition? Once was enough!!!!
Thanks for the speedy replies.
So, I presume that means all tracks were electrified in 1935, both upper stub end and lower through tracks?
All done at one time. However, electrification of the bypass freight tracks to Potomac Yard may have come somewhat later.
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