City of SF of George M.Pullman?

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City of SF of George M.Pullman?
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:03 AM
Hello! I am Japanese. Pardon my poor english.

I am interest in the American classic railroad.
I visited San Francisco Public Library Home Page.
I found out two photo of George M.Pullman observation car.

No1.Use for Treasure Island Special(color scheme is two tone grey?)

No2.Use for City of San Francisco(color scheme is UP yellow and red stripe?)

UP color scheme photo is rare one?
If you know about George M.Pullman of City of San Francisco,Please tell it to me.
And What your recommended books?
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:06 PM
Dear TokioJoe,
Welcome to the forum!

I am sorry, but I do not know much about the City of San Francisco itself. However, here is some speculation that I think you may find useful:
The name George M. Pullman sounds to me like the name of a sleeper car which was one of the many sleepers leased to railroads by Pullman. As such, it likely wore a number of paint schemes. As I recall, the City of San Francisco was a joint operation of the Union Pacific, Southern Pacific, and Chicago North Western (the so-called "Harriman Railroads"). As such, the George M. Pullman might have worn the paint schemes of all three roads, or maybe not. As for the Treasure Island Special, I don't know who ran it, but there's a good chance the paint scheme on that train was just stainless steel (no paint).

As for books, The History of North American Railroads by Bill Yenne has some nice pictures, but I wouldn't advise that you buy it for pictures of the City of San Francisco (it's a large book, only a small fraction of which is pictures of the City of San Francisco). Nevertheless, you say that you are interested in the American classic railroad, and you would probably enjoy it, although you might have trouble getting it in Japan. Also, Pentrex has produced a DVD on the Union Pacific's streamliners, and although I have not seen it, it has gotten many favorable reviews.

I hope I have helped,
Daniel
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 01, 2004 5:16 PM
I'm sorry, did I say The History of North American Railroads? I meant The Great Railroads of North America. Sorry if I have caused any confusion.

Sincerely,
Daniel
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 02, 2004 4:46 AM
Dear trainjunky29. Thank you for your help.

Do you know model manufacture The Coach Yard?
They has home page.They made HO scale model of this car.
I looked at the sample photograph.
It is two color scheme(two tone grey color and silver color).

I don't know why The Coach Yard don't make The City of San Francisco version.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 02, 2004 8:21 PM
and he notes -

The "George M. Pullman" was constructed as a 3 bedroom, 1 compartment, 1 drawing room buffet/lounge observation in 1933 . It was an experimental lightweight car, (Lot no. 6400, Plan 4028) for display at the Chicago Century of Progress Exhibition.

Built mainly of aluninum, it was essentially a heavyweight design with an arch roof. It had riveted sides, cast aluminum 4 wheel trucks, no skirts and finished in brushed aluminum with raised letters. It toured several railroads and in 1937, it was rebuilt with Commonwealth six wheel trucks, Pullman Co.'s then standard two tone gray paint, skirts matching streamlined equipment and retractible steps.

While it may have been in service on the Union Pacific, it was actually a pool car and spent many years on the Santa Fe Railroad. It was retired in 1955 and scrapped in the mid-sixties.

Pullman did construct a similar car in 1933, (Lot no. 6416, Plan 7334). It was a coach observation/lounge and similar construction with an odd pair of cast aluminum trucks. In 1936, the car was modified with triple bolster trucks and painted U. P. colors for use on trains between Denver and Cheyenne. It wore the name "City of Cheyenne" while on the U. P., who leased it. for a few years then returned it to Pullman Standard where it was apparently scrapped during the War.

I cannot find a reference to the "George M. Pullman" wearing U.P. paint. perhaps it was the second car that you are referring to.

A good source of information for these cars is "The Official Pullman Standard Library" series, [W. David Randall & William G. Anderson Vol 16, ca 1995, RPC Publications, Godfrey, IL]...

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 10:26 AM
Dear carpyfishburn. Thank you very much.

Please try it.

1.Access to San Franscisco Public Library (http://sfpl.org/)

2.icon "Collection:SF Photos" click.

--> San Francisco Historical Photograph Collection - 6th Floor
(http://sfpl.org/librarylocations/sfhistory/sfphoto.htm)

3.icon "Search Digitized Images" click.

--> Search the San Francisco Historical Photograph Collection
(http://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/)

4.Text "Photo ID Number Search" click.

--> Search the San Francisco Historical Photograph Collection Photo ID Search
(http://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/search/i)

5.Input Photo Id AAC-8212 and Search Photos button click.

--> (http://sflib1.sfpl.org:82/search/i?SEARCH=AAC-8212&x=75&y=9)

You can enlage this photo.(Click Text "view Image").

And Id AAB-0072 is Treasure Island Special.

I know "City of Cheyenne" car.I find out a photo of the car at Denver Public Library home page.
The photo call number is OP-19534.(photo date December 27, 1936)
They are similar.

I hope you find out.
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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:43 PM
TokioJoe,

I don't have the data with me, but I believe the "George M. Pullman" was repainted in UP colours in 1939 for the replacement "City of San Francisco" after the derailment of the train caused by sabotage.

The other replacement cars came from the "Challenger" and from other trains. This is mentioned in the book "Streamliners" from Kratville Press, I think and in the small book of "Pullman Colours and Lettering", by Arthur Dubin, published by Kalmbach.

It is possible that the articulated cars "Bear Flag" and "California Republic" replaced the "George M Pullman" on the replacement train, because these were also painted in UP colours about that time.

I will try to check my books and make sure that this is correct!

Peter
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:00 PM
and he replies to TokioJoe -

I have seen the photos in the San Francisco Library and agree with M636C that the car was painted U.P. colors for use on the "City of San Francisco" after the tragic derailment , however it appears to be a short lived assignment as it was later used on the "Florida Arrow" and the "Super Chief".

John R. White, Jr., in his book: ""The American Railway Passenger Car" [Johns Hopkins University Press ca. 1978, pp 280-282] contradicts "The Official Pullman Standard Library" facts about length of service. White states that after leaving the Pullman fleet in 1952, it was used on the Chicago Great Western for an additional twelve years But White contradicts himself here too.

It is interesting that both accounts list it as being dismantled in 1964 after many idle years. I am wondering how long it was actually used by the CGW before being withdrawn. Supposedly it was purchased by an individual for conversion to a private car but that fell through. Knowing the effects of age and weather on aluminum, I'm not surprised. It would have cost a fortune to restore for service.

Too bad it wasn't preserved though, it was an interesting car...

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 06, 2004 1:51 AM
Dear M636C, Thank you very much.

I think that many authors of railroad books don't know this photo.
It's just a historical photo.


Dear carpyfishburn, Thank you very much.

I have never seen photos of this car on the "Florida Arrow" and the "Super Chief".
I hope I find out it.


Public Libraries have many historical photos of railroads.
It's a "Treasure Island Special"!
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 06, 2004 8:02 PM
Dear TokioJoe,
I for some reason think that I have seen the George M. Pullman in service on the Super Chief. I believe I saw a photograph of it in the early years of the Super Chief (the Super Chief was started in 1937), or it might have been the Chief. I'm not sure, but I believe I saw it in the book Santa Fe: The Chief Way. If you can find this book in Japan you might want to buy it, as it has lots of classic streamliner photographs.

I hope I have helped,
Daniel
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:03 AM
Dear trainjunky29,

Thank you for your help.

I bought a book "Santa Fe Streamliners"(by Karl Zimmermann, Quardant Press) and
a book "Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook"(by Arthur Dubin,Kalmbach).

I saw a photo of George M.Pullman in the "Santa Fe Streamliners".(Page 47)
This is a "Chief".(June 21,1946)
It's "Treasure Island Special" color.

And "Pullman Paint and Lettering Notebook"(Page 130,131) is very important for me.
I got a answer.

I am very lucky.

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