Seeking SAL and ACL passenger-train info

[al-in-chgo]

 

Photographing the Folkston Funnel (got enough "f' sounds there?) has given me a taste for learning more about the pre-merger ACL and SAL; or the (I believe) four-year period of merged SCL passenger service prior to Amtrak.   

I'm terribly confused as to what the premerger trains where and where their routes were, especially (Tampa) Miami-Washington (New York).  I do know that ACL was the dominant partner of the two, but I'd like more detail about routes and runs.  I also believe that the ACL varnish on that route was styled "Champion" while the SCL was "Silver."   Of course, that doesn't mean today that Amtrak's Silver Star and Silver Meteor have to follow original SAL routes; in fact, I've been told a lot of SAL main in S. Georgia/N. Florida has been ripped up or purchased by short lines.

I could use your collective wisdom to decide which is the best for me:  shop for ACL and SAL passenger timetables in about 1965-66; OR shop for an early combined SCL timetable from 1967 (correct me if I'm wrong, please); OR try for a decent OGR ca. 1965. 

Leaving aside railfan shows, are the individuals who sell old timetables fairly accurate as to their condition?  And I'm guessing what I need would cost upwards of ten dollars, perhaps much upwards.  So cost is something of an object. 

Also if you're aware of any good comprehensive history of ACL or ACL/SAL, I can try the used-book online services.  The MBI series, of which I've read many, seems to have no separate entry for SAL, ACL or SCL -- just "CSX" in general.  Pity.  The more useful a book to the interested beginner (me), the more I'd be willing to pay, esp. if in good condition. 

I haven't posted at this particular site very much before now, but one of my Xmas presents was a subscription to CLASSIC TRAINS, so I imagine I'll be hanging out more....

Thanks,

al

 

 

[timz]

I'm guessing what I need would cost upwards of ten dollars, perhaps much upwards.

Not on eBay. If I were trying to sell a 1965 Guide on eBay I'd consider myself lucky to get $5 for it (plus shipping).

Search for "official guide" under "Paper" under "Railroadiana" under "Transportation" under "Collectibles" and you'll soon find one. Or several.

Maybe you can get cheap copies of the reprints of the SAL and ACL histories by Richard Prince. The Indiana University reprints from around 2000 have inferior photo reproduction, so don't spend a fortune on them.

[Redwards]

This website has some schedules for The Champion, The Silver Meteor and The Silver Star:

 http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2.html

Also, An interesting story here on Classic Trains about an incident on the ACL East Coast Champion.  I didn't realize that the ACL was operating it's passenger trains at 100mph. 

http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=93 

 

--Reed

[al-in-chgo]

This website has some schedules for The Champion, The Silver Meteor and The Silver Star:

 http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2.html

Also, An interesting story here on Classic Trains about an incident on the ACL East Coast Champion.  I didn't realize that the ACL was operating it's passenger trains at 100mph. 

http://www.trains.com/ctr/default.aspx?c=a&id=93  

--Reed

And unless ACL and Santa Fe (and maybe others) had head-end power equipped with cab signalling, that was against a specific speed limit of 79 mph enforceable by federal gov't (ICC I think, not sure).

However, if the tracks were good enough, the head-end crew seasoned enough, then apparently the Feds weren't out to make trouble:  it is also widely conceded that the Super Chief could cruise at 90 mph and make up lost time at 100 mph on some stretches, especially out  West.  I myself wonder about the (1950s-60s) IC; given a 79 mph speed limit, the varnish oftened averaged 60 mph or more yet made numerous stops.  How then?   

And I also thank you very much for the pertinent and interesting info!  -  a. s.

 

[passengerfan]

If my memory serves me correctly the Santa Fe, IC, CB&Q, Milw and some others all had ATS (Automatic Train Stop) and the lead unit in all cases had to be equipped with it. This permitted passenger train speeds of 100 mph over certain track while those passenger trains not so equipped were only permitted 79 mph. Not all track on a given railroad was ATS equipped.

Look at whats happening today with the track improvements and welded rail permitting many freight trains 70 mph speed limits. I am sure I have ridden the Southwest Chief making up time on certain former Santa Fe districts where the speed has been in excess of 90 mph. I know that the Surfliners are permitted 90 mph running on some sections between Los Angeles and San Diego. North of Los Angeles the fastest running is 79 mph. Hope this helps.

By the way there is an excellent book on the ACL and SAL trains put out by there Historical Society and during WWII it mentions the Champions operating at 100 mph and also one very serious accident involving Champions at high speed. I have the book in my collection but can't recall the name just now. I moved about a year ago and just put the books on the shelves and have to organize them soon but the wife has had me doing all of the little things to keep wedded bliss that makes her happy, soon I shall spend a couple of days reorganizing the books. 

[timz]

And unless ACL and Santa Fe (and maybe others) had head-end power equipped with cab signalling...

I myself wonder about the (1950s-60s) IC; given a 79 mph speed limit...

ACL, SFe and IC were all legal 100 mph railroads at various times. ACL only kept it in the timetable for a couple years, SFe dropped to 90 around 1959, but IC was still 100 until ... Amtrak, maybe?

[daveklepper]

The premier trains in the Florida - New York service were the ACL's East Coast and West Coast Champions, both coach and sleeper all-lighweight streamliners.   During heavy traffic periods, the West Coach Champion occasionally had borrowed sleepers, a tuscan red PRR sleeper on a few occasions, or occasionally and western railroad, more typicallyi UP.  The East Coast Champion was kept all stainless, with matched PRR, RF&P, mostly ACL, and FEC equipment, until the 1959 FEC strike, when the ACL began serving Miami directly via trackage rights over the SAL from Auburndale, and it was possible to travel to Orlando on both the West Coast and East Coast Champions.  The FEC equipment was mostly sold to the SAL, who used it to retire lots of the remaing heavyweights.  Also in the winter, there was the all-Pullman (up to around the ACL-SAL merger, when coaches were added) Florida Special.   Except for the diners, usually two, and the lounge car, this was mostly borrowed equpment, UP predominating, but MP, TP, and SP also showing up.   Secondary NY - Florida trains were the Gulf Coast Special, which was the renamed Havana Special, and the Everglades, which was the Jacksonville-Washington local, with a Jacksonville - Richmond sleeper that was cut back to Jacksonville - Florence before being cut completely.   The Gulf Coast Special had through sleepers to Wilmington via a connecting train with coaches from Wilson, NC, and through sleepers to Atlanta, via a connecting train at Florence to Waycross?   Athens?  and then the Georgia Railroad to Atlanta.  The ACL had a practice of using only lightwieght equipment on its premier trains, except for some very heavily rebuilt lounge and dining cars, which were purple, arch roofs only slightly higher than the Budd equipment  -  but six wheel trucks.   As off-peak travel decresed in later years with the beginning of jet competition, the East and Coast and West Coast Champions were combined in the summer north of Jacksonville.

There was one other secondary train on the main line, but I forget its name.  There were some other branch line operations, inlcuding south-west Florida.   And of course, the ACL handled trains from Chicago.   (The SAL did not.)

The SAL did not use borrowed equpment.   The all-pullman Orange Blossom Special ended its run with heavywieght equipment around 1953-54.  The three streamliners were the Silver Meteor, the fastest and always all lightwieght stainless steel, with round-end observation, the Silver Star, which occasionally had a modernized heavyweight coach in its consist in winter, and the Silver Comet, which ran to Atlanta and Birmingham, not to Florida, also occasionally with a heavyweight.  The Meteor and Star were split at Wildwood, FLA, with the main sections going to Miami and the rest of the equpment going to Tampa and St. Petersburg.  Secondary trains included the Tidewater, from Newport News to Atlanta, and the Sunland and the Palmland on the main line.  Some pullmans and some coaches were swapped between trains to provide Newport News - Florida service.

Also the Gulf Wind, a Jacksonville - New Orleand train, mostly with lightweight coaches, sleepers, diner, and rear-end rounded observation should be mentioned.   It often had Loyuisville and Nashville equipment, ran over the L&N west of Flomington, and was often combined with the Piedmont Limited (from NY and Washington on the Southern to Atlanta, then the West POint route to Montgomery and then the L&N) into New Orleans

I once did clock the Silver Meteor going 100 mph mile after mile afer mile, runnig north of Jacksonville n-bound, timing the milepost at a mile in 36 seconds, looking out back from the observation car. 

[passengerfan]

Started organizing my books once again and the book I mentioned is titled By Streamliner New York to Florida. Maybe available through the ACL/SAL Historical society. It is a really excellent book well worth adding to any collection.

[al-in-chgo]

Dear timz, Redwards, passengerfan, and daveklepper; (also to all SAL/ACL/SCL etc. Passenger Fans reading this),

Thank you all for your invaluable recommendations -- every one of you added significantly to my fledgling research on Seaboard, ACL, and the merged SCL's passenger service.  Internet or not, I simply would not have gotten such a good healthy place to push off from without your help -- not even in Chicago, because other than a CSX connection there isn't much hardcopy available up here. 

In hopes of helping any other interested fans, here's what I've accomplished up to now:  I definitely am going to contact IU press because they might have Richard Prince's  SEABOARD AIR LINE RAILWAY:  STEAM BOATS, LOCOMOTIVES AND HISTORY and his ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD:  STEAM BOATS, LOCOMOTIVES AND HISTORY at a good price. As you told me, both books were published in 2000 by Indiana University Press (Bloomington); and they are worth a pretty penny used!  [Online research unveiled one other widely available Prince RR history, published in 2001, NASHVILLE, CHATTANOOGA &  ST. LOUIS RAILWAY, but just as you told me it too is pricey.  Being not my meat, I don't plan to read it now.] 

My best friend has promised to teach me the strategy and tactics of bidding for e-Bay material.  I hope to score an old OGR soon, preferably from the late fifties.  Searching abebook, alibris and amazon, I knew all the history-oriented books I was looking for would only be available used.  I ordered (thru one selling agent), three books from three different used-book services (names upon request): 
 
 -  Seaboard Coastline in Florida by Warren, Bob; Clark, Fred;

 -  By Streamliner from Ny to Fl: New York to Florida by Welsh, Joseph; and

 -  Atlantic Coast Line Passenger Service: The Postwar Years by Goolsby, Larry. 

[This is not to say these are all the widely-distributed books I found available that have a say about NY - FLA 1946-1967 (on to May 1971), but they seemed to be the best ensemble for me.] 

The first book, SEABOARD COASTLINE IN FLORIDA is a "demi-art-book" sized paperback almost entirely free of narrative but chock-full of B&W photos that range in quality and content from routine to excellent, a few bordering on the superb, as superb as can be given this book's category of mass production. 

Do not expect to hear references to Folkston or the Florida East Coast or Henry Flagler; SEABOARD COAST LINE was written by (now former) company employees and published under the auspices of the Tampa Bay Chapter, Nat'l Rwy Historical Society, of which the authors are members. This generous book's focus is on both passenger and freight ops and the documention is almost entirely with captioned photos.  Moreover, since this book is not a corporate history, you will not be burdened with tables and charts or photos of white men in suits shaking hands, histories of the evolution of the logo and so on.  (I do wish, though, that the book had shown or discussed at least a tad of premerger ACL and SAL standing and ops; nonetheless, strictly speaking, the title promises no more than what it delivers.) 

And what it delivers is quite wonderful, any railfan's delight:  over 40 chapters span the period from the 1967 ACL/SAL merger until at least the late 70s. Or perhaps "mini-chapters" is a better description of the book, the average chapter here coming out a little less than three pages in this 115-pp. volume.  While anything but chatty, every chapter is happily chock-full of B&W pictures, some functional, many excellent, a few as top-notch as any B&W photo can appear in this category of mass-produced book. Topics presented include chapters for the Juice Train and the Circus Train, Rolling Stock, the various RR shops of the combined lines, Foreign Power, the Auto Train, ex-SAL "dude" no. 4900, small RR terminals, large RR terminals, Mishaps, Early Amtrak, and Amtrak As the Seventies Close.  Along the way you'll see junctions, sidingsand lots of photos of varnish and motive power (esp. E7's) now long gone, not to mention some of the old ramshackle wooden control towers and depots that were abandoned even before this book was compiled and are lucky now to exist at all, many of them having surrendered to development or the general Floridian fecundity.  Principal photograph seems to have taken from about 1967 to about 1980. 

Although most if not all of the photos predate 1980, Carstens' pub. date is shown as 1985 and  the very last sentence in the book mentions CSX. Inside front and back covers depict the SCL's Tampa Division and Jacksonville Division, respectively. Only the front and back covers are in color. The format is a softcover "demi-art-book": about eight inches tall, twelve wide, and perfect-bound.  Underneath the professionalism of detail in layout, captioning, editing, and organization, one feels that this work was a labor of love as well. 

Fortunately this 33-year old softcover tome is widely available and good or good-plus-quality copies are easy to find at online used-book sellers sites (clickable from the big book onlines like abebooks, alibris and Amazon).  With relatively fresh copies starting in the seven-to-ten dollars range (not counting the usual $2.99 - $3.99 S&H fee per book), IMHO even relatively casual RR-history readers should treat this book like an impulse purchase and go for it.  Provided the topic is of interest, I can think of few railfans beyond the already erudite and sophisticated historian who cannot but learn from and enjoy SEABOARD COAST LINE.

The second book, BY STREAMLINER FROM NY TO FL (Welsh), while not published by a nationally known house, seems nonetheless to have had the biggest printing (or largest retail exposure) of the three. I'm guesstimating this because BY STREAMLINER tripped the largest bestseller exposure in this category according to Amazon stats, and also because the book seems to have been designed with the largest coalition of readers in mind: rwy. historians, the nostalgic, and lovers of railway art and the postwar passenger experience in general and the SAL type of NYC - FLA travel in particular. The front cover helps set the tone: a Fifties-style painting of a SB SAL train on the NEC (through the snow and under the cat!)  Not the most efficient book in the world, but loads of fun with some terrific "anecdotal" (or perhaps better said, social-historical) material like old menus, photos of the passengers, and son on, alternating with rosters and lists, etc., and I'm sure it will be useful and fun poring over it.  

The Larry Gooslby book I haven't opened yet.  It arrived shrinkwrapped from a Midwestern used-bookseller that specializes in transportation topics (mostly rubber-tired production vehicles and NASCAR, but airplanes and trains too).  I can't get over the fact that it is unused!  As soon as I get over my astonishment I'll go for it.  (The three books were ordered online during the same session; as I said all three came from different used-bookstore sellers during the same session; yet they all arrived the same day --Jan. 29.)  

As I said, I personally am very happy that this thread is filling out so well.  Perhaps if conditions warrant and this thread starts to die down [no time soon, I hope ], I'll consider opening up a new thread here on CLASSIC TRAINS in case readers of this site would like to cite their remembrances of these railro

[timz]

both books were published in 2000 by Indiana University Press (Bloomington); and they are worth a pretty penny used!

The Indiana Univ books are reprints- the originals date from the 1960s or maybe early 1970s. And no, the reprints aren't worth a pretty penny used, even if somebody is trying to charge a pretty penny. Give me $20 plus shipping and I'll be delighted to sell you my copy of the SAL reprint (now that I've gotten an original).

Prince books focus on the RR and its steam locomotives-- he may not include that much on the diesel trains. His SAL book includes nothing on their diesels-- or on the Silver Meteor/Star/Comet.

Prince also did books on L&N, SR, RF&P, CofG I think and maybe A&WP or some such thing, and maybe the original NS. Dunno how many got reprinted.

There's no strategy involved in getting a 1950s Official Guide on eBay. They're plentiful, unless you're hoping to get one for 99 cents.  Looks like this one is going begging (maybe because its condition is suspect)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Official-Guide-Railways-Steam-Navigation-Lines-1957_W0QQitemZ370017009997QQihZ024QQcategoryZ4132QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem 

By the way, that June 1941 that's being auctioned now is doubtless the reprint-- which means better paper than the original, but if you insist on originals ...