N&W Class J Tested By the PRR

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N&W Class J Tested By the PRR
Posted by RGeorge on Friday, December 07, 2007 9:02 PM

Seeking information on N&W Class Js tested by the Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) on passenger trains during WWII.  I believe one J even pulled the famed Broadway Limited.

 

Thanks

 

RGeorge

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Posted by rogruth on Friday, December 07, 2007 10:22 PM
Don Ball's book about the Pennsy in the '40's & '50's has info about this.I don't remember the exact title.
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Posted by jimrice4449 on Saturday, December 08, 2007 12:12 AM
I can't find the exact reference but the PRR borrowed a J for testing and, after the PRR people had a chuckle or two over a 120MPH speedometer on a 70' drivered engine, coupled it up to an 18 car train, one of which was a dynonometer, and ran it at a sustained 110MPH across northern Indiana.  They went for another 50 T-1s instead.
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Posted by Redwards on Saturday, December 08, 2007 6:56 AM

As mentioned above by rogruth the test is briefly covered in Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940s - 1950s".  There are some older posts on this forum that have a bit of additional detail.  See the 5-23-2005 post from Feltonhill and the reply from Old Timer in the thread below:

http://trains.com/trccs/forums/482004/ShowPost.aspx

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Posted by cnwfan51 on Saturday, December 08, 2007 7:08 AM
    WOW you learn something everyday  I had forgotten about Mr Balls book But tes It seems the Pennsys motive power peopke were a bit astonshied to learn about the J class and what it could do   CNW Forever Larry
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Posted by feltonhill on Saturday, December 08, 2007 3:24 PM

N&W Class J 610 was tested by PRR from 12/6/44 through 1/3/45, approximately 7100 miles.  It was used on the eastbound Broadway (#28) 12/8, 12/21, 12/29 and 1/1/45.  This is taken from PRR records at the Hagley Library in Wilmington, DE. Not much info regarding this test has surfaced up to now.  I'm trying to get an article together for both PRRT&HS and N&WHS, but the pickin's is slim!

PRR had considerable praise for the J based on the few pieces of correspondence I've seen.  On one trip (train # not specified), an average speed of 94 mph was maintained for 45 miles.  Speeds of over 100 mph were reported, although the speedometer was not calibrated.  The only criticism PRR made was that machinery speeds were too high at 100 mph, and that very little time was made up on trains of 16 or more cars.  This is in PRR memo 1/6/45, L.B. Jones to H. W. Jones.  It's not hearsay or lore.

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Posted by RGeorge on Monday, December 10, 2007 8:32 PM

Appreciate the scholarly reply. 

I'd love to know the Broadway Limited's consist (pulled by the Class J) for modeling purposes, i.e. dynometer car, number/type of cars, sleepers from other roads, doubleheaded with PRR locomotive, etc.

For clarification, was the J re-lettered PRR or left in its N&W livery? 

Was more than one J tested; if so, what was the road number(s)?

Thanks again.

RGeorge

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Posted by feltonhill on Monday, December 10, 2007 10:19 PM

The Broadway trains were either 9 & 13 cars, not that big a train for a J (or PRR T1 either, for that matter).   There is no record of any dyno car being used.  It's likely that the J was not repainted or renumbered during the tests. 

There's one old photo that I've seen showing 610 next to one of the two PRR T1 prototypes (6110 or 6111, number is incomplete in the photo) standing in the Chicago station.  I'm trying to find the original source of the photo.

Only N&W 610 was tested.  According to the info I have,  610 was used solo and not doubleheaded with any PRR loco.

FWIW, N&W 610 was built as an unstreamlined J1 during WW2.  Just prior to the tests, it had the standard Class J shrouding applied and roller bearing rods installed. Without those, the high speeds achieved during the tests would not have been possible.  Correspondence also indicates that 610 was still rated at 275 psi boiler pressure, not 300 psi.  This increase would occur after tests on Christiansburg Mountain in August 1945.

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Posted by RGeorge on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:45 PM

Appreciate the additional detail and you read my mind.  I realized in reading Miller's Norfolk & Western Class J that 610 was a J-1 and originally not streamlined -- you can really appreciate the brawn of the Js from the rare photos of the J-1s.

 Can Pennsy experts please advise the typical consist of The Broadway Limited in 1944/45 please.  I'd really like the exact consist of the Limited pulled by 610, if available.

 

Many thanks

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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, September 29, 2018 7:38 PM

RGeorge

....please advise the typical consist of The Broadway Limited in 1944/45 please.  I'd really like the exact consist of the Limited pulled by 610, if available.

Many thanks

 
 
Train #28 The Broadway Limited in 1942
 
  1. R1 electric locomotive #4899
  2. Railroad Post Office #5480
  3. baggage car #6054
  4. City of Williamsport 18-roomette car
  5. Harbor Springs 2-bedroom Bar-lounge car
  6. D82R Dinner #4500
  7. Imperial Lawn 4-4-2 Sleeping car
  8. Cambria County 13-double-bedroom car
  9. Skyline View 2 master-room 1-double-bedroom observation

(For the record)

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Posted by Backshop on Saturday, September 29, 2018 7:43 PM

Holy Necrothread, Batman!  Almost 11 years...

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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, September 29, 2018 8:07 PM

I wish the original poster found the answer before my post. Laugh

And yes, if I know the answer and the post can still be searched by Google, I will ansewer it for the record. 

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 30, 2018 10:03 PM

It does bear considering that the poster in question is still listed as a member (albeit with distressingly few posts for All Those Years).

And bingo! a few posts up is precisely the feltonhill post that covered the N&W J testing on PRR, something that will be of particular interest to Jones1945, I think.

I had NOT realized before this that the high speed reached in the testing, over 110mph, was likely accomplished on the 275psi original J1 boiler pressure!

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, September 30, 2018 11:24 PM

Overmod

And bingo! a few posts up is precisely the feltonhill post that covered the N&W J testing on PRR, something that will be of particular interest to Jones1945, I think.

I had NOT realized before this that the high speed reached in the testing, over 110mph, was likely accomplished on the 275psi original J1 boiler pressure!

You have got me, Overmod. Laugh  IIRC I read some discussions somewhere about the boiler pressure of N&W Class J and the performance at such boiler pressure during the test, I can't remember the detail but someone provided a point of view from a mechanical perspective that the different between 300psi and 275psi wouldn't make a big different in the case of N&W’s Class J.
 
Although I am really interested in N&W J and designs of PRR’s motive power, N&W Class J is not on my top 5 favorite steam engine list (in Top 10 for sure). There is one thing which the crews participated in PRR’s testing of N&W Class J stated in the report that Class J can beat all but except ONE pennsy’s locomotive, that is my favorite engine.  CoffeeLaugh
 

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