Photographers becoming a security concern.

Yeah, so?

Adrianspeeder

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder Yeah, so? Adrianspeeder

Railfan Photographing will be "NO MORE"!
No more Railroad Pictures on the Internet.
We are all prisoners in our country because of our POWER HUNGRY GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!

Typical knee jerk over reaction by "the authorities".

there was a page long article in time magazine about this about a year back....

I hopr the two guys in the story that were harrassed and got $2500 each in settlement buy new photography gear and hit it with a vengence... [:D]

I wonder what the security man would do if he saw a railfan set up a stool and easel and start painting a picture of a railroad yard or locomotive on his canvas.

QUOTE: Originally posted by lincoln5390 I wonder what the security man would do if he saw a railfan set up a stool and easel and start painting a picture of a railroad yard or locomotive on his canvas.

Nothing if he was wearing a turban... That would be un PC.

"News" Item: Tourist arrested for purchasing postcards of "sensitive" buildings and structures during vacation in [insert name of city]. Police said that the tourists choice of postcards, all of well known structures within the city, aroused the attention of the clerk at the tourist trap where the postcards were being purchased. The clerk then called police, voicing her concern that the 'tourist' might be gathering data for a possible terrorist attack.

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. Railfan Photographing will be "NO MORE"! No more Railroad Pictures on the Internet. We are all prisoners in our country because of our POWER HUNGRY GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!

I expect a knock at the door any day now as they come to confiscate my collection of "coffee table" railroad and fire department books...

Buffalo Springfield had it right:
"Paranoia strikes deep,
Into your life it will creep."

Well in that case,I guess I'd better be expecting a knock on the door
like Larry is. Although most of mine aren't on the "Coffee Table".

And that is a very good analogy for the times.

(psssstt,I almost forgot,I've got some sensitive "post cards"over here,
what city do you need them for ?)

Sensitive? Hah. How about that Ammonium Nitrate Loader in sometown West some state in several of my MR books. I deliberately left out precise info. But if a terror group read the same books or mags we do then they already know about it.

The only really sensitive installations are Missile Bases and associated security. And other bases vital to National Defense.

There are many buildings in the civilian world that can be identifiable. For example there is a Telephone exchange in one town of maryland that would not be too hard to truckbomb out of comission. That one exchange controls a great deal of traffic.

Sensitive. Hanh. There are important areas we take care to avoid and overly sensitive people should be careful about calling authoritys down on those they dont like the looks of.

It s anyone right to take a picture of anywhere or anything, as log as they are on public property. It falls under the first amendment in the freedom of the press clause. Therefore, I will take a picture of basically anything I please from public property, or on private property with written permission .

If we get any more knotheads like the one UniHead (of ILK) encountered in Houston, I hope they get fined and thrown in the clink. I continue to see boneheads (railfans and surveyors) try similar stunts here and I am not the least bit bashfull about telling them how stupid they really are.

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder Yeah, so? Adrianspeeder Railfan Photographing will be "NO MORE"! No more Railroad Pictures on the Internet. We are all prisoners in our country because of our POWER HUNGRY GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!

BNSF Railfan:
1. Read miniwyo's post. I couldn't have said it better unless I was a 1st Amendment Lawyer!!!!! [^]
2. Our Government is a reflection of the people in this country, just look around and see how greedy & power hungery we all are!!! [}:)] [}:)] [}:)]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder Yeah, so? Adrianspeeder Railfan Photographing will be "NO MORE"! No more Railroad Pictures on the Internet. We are all prisoners in our country because of our POWER HUNGRY GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!

Again I post:

Yeah, so?

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder Yeah, so? Adrianspeeder Railfan Photographing will be "NO MORE"! No more Railroad Pictures on the Internet. We are all prisoners in our country because of our POWER HUNGRY GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!! Again I post: Yeah, so?

I'm not sure if I envy your naive attitude, or resent it. Apparently you either cannot or will not see what this thread is telling you about how our rights have been devastated by the current administration.

How would you feel if everyone who owned a 4x4 off-road vehicle was considered a potential tresspasser, and had to justify their possession of such a vehicle; or worse yet, were outlawed except for those in government service. Or maybe if modifying a 4x4 vehicle to other than factory standards is prohibited, due to other drivers "safety". My guess is that I would here your cries of indignation way up here in Wisconsin.

You may think that the above example is too far-fetched to even be considered. Most folks would have said that about photography five years ago. What if someday a terrorist does attack a sensitive installation? And what if that terrorist used a modified, over-powered, lift-kit-installed 4x4 to gain access to said installation? Surely you can see the potential for over-reaction by the government towards such vehicles.

While this thread is essentially about photography, it is also about personal freedom, the one thing this country used to have over and above almost everywhere else. I for one am saddened, not only because of what I see happening, but also by the indifference of the people of the United States. As the police state broadens it's grip, more and more people will begin to notice, as their various hobbies and activities are negatively affected. But of course, it is already too late to do anything about it.

What if an attack happend at night??? put up a curfew?

4x4s have been under the gun long before photography has been since 9-11.

Try to insure one of my modded broncos for the same price of a stock one. Or better yet, insure a modded rig for the price of a stock one and get into an accident.

Any public park or trails have been all but banned from use for any 4x4 for many years now. Private property is about the only place to play. But if the neighbors don't like it, cops can cite you with disturbing the peace.

Try to put up with environmentalist wackos that freak out on you at gas stations, put flyers on my windshield saying im as bad as terrorists , and are darn well trying to get 4x4s banned. (where are these morons during a snowstorm when I volunteer my time and rig transporting nurses and doctorsto hospitals?) .

If it ever comes down to photography banning of our beloved hobby, I think we will have other more important things to worry about.

Adrianspeeder

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder If it ever comes down to photography banning of our beloved hobby, I think we will have other more important things to worry about. Adrianspeeder

We already do. (see my post above, as well as the links on the site originally provided by BNSF).

QUOTE: Originally posted by miniwyo It s anyone right to take a picture of anywhere or anything, as log as they are on public property. It falls under the first amendment in the freedom of the press clause. Therefore, I will take a picture of basically anything I please from public property, or on private property with written permission .

As you have already have heard,cops don't even care about the First Amendment.
The Amendment is meaningless to them. Alot of cops have already said that.
Just a thought.

I live in the Phila. area and I recall these incidents clearly. You know, until recently I have not been much of a fan for NPR or the ACLU but now that it is my ox that is being gored I see these organizations in a new light. I railfan this area intensively and have been accosted by any number of law enforcement types and wannabe G-men. They do not know the law in many cases. Here in NJ NJ Tansit has given rail fans enormous problems even going so far as to try to forbid photos of trains from public streets. today I carry my passport with me to prove my citizenship (don't laugh. Its worked) and a laminated letter from NJT to the ACLU backing off their claims to have the right to control phtography. That too has saved me a couple of times. On only one occasion have I lost my cool with a railroad employee, a trackworker who tried his junior FBI routine on me. When I first tried to patiently point out his error on insisting taking pictures of trains was illegal he threatened to call the cops. I stood my ground and told him to go ahead. Cops never did show up. By the way if had been legitimate law enforcement I would have left out of deference to his authority but I recommend that rail fans as much as possible resist the effort to stifle our interests which go beyond that of a hobby. We are documenting the transport industry and someday our archival photographs will reveal to a generation yet unborn how we once moved people and goods, that is if we don't allow ourselves to be silenced and blinded.

I just listened to the broadcast, some food for thought. That being said, I and this is my own view didn't hear more than a fleeting reference to railfans.

Whether we like it or not our world did change after 9/11. The major problem is not railfans, or photographers or even the cops. It is the media who has taken over and is whipping the masses into near hystria with biased reporting either pro or con depending upon the view they want.

I for one will fight for my rights, for the first time in my life I have made a donation to the ACLU (My wife has done so for years). To many people have died for the freedoms that this Country has or did have.

Just my 2 cents worth

Have a great weekend railfanning!

The media does not whip ME or MY family into near hysteria.

The closest we got to feeling concern was when we watch the United States Marines clear out a iraqi stronghold live on satellite as it happened. We did not want any of those boys hurt.

I find it interesting to see that the media keeps a clean photo set in the USA, not much is made of railfans and really graphic photos can be found on the internet.

I believe that you can take a picture or video of whatever you want, as long you dont trespass. Shooting from a public property is perfectly fine. I have shot trains and such from inside a legally parked car without too much trouble. I dont shoot trains often enough to have any trouble with anyone.

I have been into installations where they ban cameras and recording devices. I have personally witnessed blogs where employees in computer companies have been fired for making pictures of loading docks and trailers (With computers in them) availible on the net in violation of his company rules.

I have cheerfully shot trains out west from the side of the highway and recieved a toot from the whistle or a wave in response. I suspect that some regions people tend to be more "uptight" about others carrying cameras more so than others.

I for one dont intend on stopping the use of camera or camcorder any time soon. I understand the situation and will create a oppertunity to "Shoot" a subject when the time is right. Sorta like hunting a deer. You dont want the Bear stalking you at that time.

halifaxcn: Bravo!! Good for you. [bow]

HighIron2003ar: I agree with your last post. I am glad you have not been hassled while shooting trains.

But when I am sitting in my red pickup truck, in the middle of the day, with the camera on its tripod next to the truck, and I am in a city park, and some piggie-eyed Barney Fife feels he needs to protect the world from white anglo-saxon terrorists in the middle of Wisconsin as he waddles over to me and has the "authority" (presumed, but not legally) to question me about what I am doing (like, DUH!!), then the cops have too much power and are out of control.

Life was much better when they just hid behind highway billboards and ate donuts.

Please forgive my cynical attitude, but because this country has so many real security issues of relevance (as has been discussed in other forums), it is difficult for me to take these simple-minded people seriously; but because of their badge, and the willingness of the population to tolerate this abuse of power, I must.

I won't worry about it till it happens to me. And I'll bet anything it never does.


mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by halifaxcn I just listened to the broadcast, some food for thought. That being said, I and this is my own view didn't hear more than a fleeting reference to railfans. Whether we like it or not our world did change after 9/11. The major problem is not railfans, or photographers or even the cops. It is the media who has taken over and is whipping the masses into near hystria with biased reporting either pro or con depending upon the view they want. I for one will fight for my rights, for the first time in my life I have made a donation to the ACLU (My wife has done so for years). To many people have died for the freedoms that this Country has or did have. Just my 2 cents worth Have a great weekend railfanning!

And for what you have said. You are very correct! I now step down.
BNSFrailfan.

I still can not see what the peaple checking out photographers are trying to stop.
If I was trying to photograph some thing for an attack I would not stand out in the open with a camera and tripod. I would do it with small camera or a cell phone with a camera so nobody would know what I was doing. Also if I wanted pictures of a major stucture I just would do a web search for them. I tried a Google image search for the George Washington
bridge and got several hundred hits.

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFNUT I still can not see what the peaple checking out photographers are trying to stop. If I was trying to photograph some thing for an attack I would not stand out in the open with a camera and tripod. I would do it with small camera or a cell phone with a camera so nobody would know what I was doing. Also if I wanted pictures of a major stucture I just would do a web search for them. I tried a Google image search for the George Washington bridge and got several hundred hits.

Hence my "news item" about the postcards.

Heck, if I want to know what traffic traverses a line, and when, I can just buy a house next to the tracks and NOBODY will be able to question what I'm doing. I'll be sitting in my own yard. If there is a large enough organization behind me, cost won't be an object. Or I can rent a hotel room in the area. You can bet that no one will question my activities, because no one will even know what I'm doing. Darned if I'm going to stand in the middle of a public park with my camera on a tripod, attracting attention. Didn't you notice that guy over there, "reading" the newspaper for the last 4 hours? Or the one who's been pushing his kid on the swing since noon?

Time for another chorus of "For What It's Worth."

I wonder what planet these people who blather on about "a police state" are from. The only posts I've seen where somebody was actually confronted it was a badge heavy boob or a wanabee and was easily resolved without a trip to the gulag or Dachau. If your overactive imagination is causing you to loose sleep at night why not just crawl under the bed where the Gestapo can't find you.

Life is mostly lived quickly, one second a person is four, the next instant the guy is 65 years old.

When I was growing up, the above mentioned stuff was always associated with commies or fasciates. Its interesting to see that this is now the republics stand on patriotism!

Finally got a chance to listen to the rest of the broadcast, just 1 last thing to add. I would never let my film, or camera equipment be taken by an officer without a search & siezure warrant. The film is technically not in plain sight, so it could possibly not be taken under the plain sight clause.

Getting stopped and questioned does not worry me too much, i am a bit concerned here though, just becasue i know how the local PD overreacts to things.

Just some words for wisdom, Read and know the Bill of Rights that covers this topic, most paticularly, the1st and 4th amendment.

Here are the basic amendments, http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/funddocs/billeng.htm

Planning on being an officer myself someday soon, I will of course, repsond to any call I were to get, but if it were to be somthing of this nature, I would be reasonable and not overreact like some officers would.