After the failure to reach an agreement on the operation of the Ski Train, one wonders if Iowa Pacific and Amtrak can reach any understanding regarding this proposal.  I'd feel much more positive toward it if an agreement was in place.  However, apparently the dinner train did make some 3 hour trips somewhere.  Perhaps this was accomplished through Metra and not Amtrak? 

You mean this from the Trains' newsfeed:

Iowa Pacific dinner trains score; E8 to be repainted IC colors

Arizona Eastern E8 No. 6070 passes Sturtevant, Wis.

Photo by TRAINS: Jim Wrinn

CHICAGO — Iowa Pacific’s “Dining with Pullman” dinner and brunch trains this past weekend sold out and provided valuable training for the company’s planned Pullman service on the rear of Amtrak’s Lake Shore Limited and City of New Orleans passenger trains.
 
If you were lucky enough to be on board or trackside, you got to experience a one-shot trip and most likely the last operation of Arizona Eastern E8 No. 6070 in black and silver colors inspired by Southern Pacific’s “Black Widow” paint scheme.
 
The company that owns Colorado’s San Luis & Rio Grande and New York’s Saratoga & North Creek short lines, among others, operated the dinner trains Friday and Saturday nights and a brunch train Sunday between Chicago and Sturtevant, Wis., on the route of Amtrak’s Hiawatha and Empire Builder trains. Equipment consisted of Iowa Pacific’s two full-length domes, New York Central diner 448, sleeper-lounge Adirondack Club in IC colors, and round-end observation car Eaton. The trains carried about 90 passengers each who paid $120.
 
Iowa Pacific President Ed Ellis told TRAINS News Wire on Monday that the trips were run as a training experience for Chef Dan Traynor and the development team working on the Pullman Sleeping Car Co. LLC, which will launch Pullman service later this year, running as private cars coupled to the two Amtrak trains. (For details, see www.travelpullman.com.)
 
“Dan is a full-time executive chef who has some on-train experience, but he and the development team needed to understand what it’s like to set up and operate out the Amtrak Chicago coach yard, which is where the Pullman trips will be based,” Ellis said. “Amtrak was very cooperative and helpful, and did a great job with the train.”
 
Iowa Pacific plans to repaint E8 No. 6070 into Illinois Central’s chocolate and orange scheme, letter it Iowa Pacific, and mate it with another former Chicago & North Western E8, also in IC colors, for future outings. The other unit is under refurbishment at National Railway Equipment in Silvis, Ill. The two units will be stationed at the Chicago Terminal Railroad in Bensenville/Elk Grove Village for charters and specials, including an April 28-May 4 special over former Frisco, Texas & Pacific, and Rock Island trackage. (For details, see www.highirontravel.com.)
 
The company also bought six Maryland commuter cars that were former Pennsylvania Railroad Budd coaches, and is upgrading two more domes so that by this summer it can field a train seating 750 for specials and charters.

Note that th press release states that the cars will be coupled to existing Amtrak trains.  This is apparently not that different from the original operation of the American European Express, which was five luxury cars coupled to the rear of the "Capitol Ltd".  As far as Amtrak is concerned,  they will probably bill this operation as a movement of private cars, subject to the existing rules and regs for said movement.

Ugh, I like the IC, but painting over a "black widow" should be a felony. 

Nice idea and I hope it works out. Too pricey for me, I'm sure, but people with money can get to experience the glory days of railroading, which I was lucky enough to do.  Riding the UP City of St. Louis and Los Angeles all Pullman and also the original CZ was awesome.

The service will appeal to a rather small niche and they might have a better chance of succeeding if they review the histories of Auto Train and American European Express, both of which suffered from undercapitalization and seemed to be in a financial situation similar to that of an interurban in the 1920's.

"After the failure to reach an agreement on the operation of the Ski Train, one wonders if Iowa Pacific and Amtrak can reach any understanding regarding this proposal."

Was it Iowa Pacific that failed?  My understanding was that it was American Railway Excursions, a division of Colorado Railcar Manufacturing, an attempt at rejuvenating the old American Oriental Express.  What is more, the reason an agreement couldn't be reached was because the cars intended for the purposed service, with receiving new paint, were still in bad need of some critical repairs, which was why Amtrak would not let the operation to proceed.

At least one of the former AOE cars has been acquired while others have been sold for use on Ross Rowland's Greenbrier Express/, whose own rebuilding of the cars stopped a few months back because of problems with finding financial backing but have started once again, but at a slower pace.  Hard to say when the Exress will roll but if IP can prove that such an operation, with the proper management, can succeed it should bode well for Mr. Rowland as well.

jmlaboda2 - Welcome to trains.com!

Oh, I show up on a very infrequent basis... just had to use a different user ID because I couldn't remember my old log-in info...

Based on some anecdotes I've heard about the Saratoga & North Creek, Iowa Pacific has money to burn. 

jmlaboda2

"After the failure to reach an agreement on the operation of the Ski Train, one wonders if Iowa Pacific and Amtrak can reach any understanding regarding this proposal."

Was it Iowa Pacific that failed?  My understanding was that it was American Railway Excursions, a division of Colorado Railcar Manufacturing, an attempt at rejuvenating the old American Oriental Express. 

While Colorado Railcar (and its associated ventures) are out of business, the Ski Train proposal was not related to Colorado Railcar.

Iowa Pacific proposed to run a similar service to the old Ski Train, but with Amtrak providing the operating rights and crews. Amtrak put the kibosh on the arrangement at the last minute, saying Iowa Pacific failed to meet the insurance requirements. However, a federal court decided otherwise, and awarded Iowa Pacific $1.1 million in damages for Amtrak's breach of contract. Here is a link to the pertinent news story:

 http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/morning_call/2011/07/amtrak-loses-ski-train-lawsuit.htmlstory:

Thanks RS... I do appreciate the correction!!!  Too many legal drugs because of health problems causes me problems all too often any more with my memory.

   In the passenger train forum a month or two ago, where as usual, the subject got around to justifying subsidies, someone (Paul Milenkovic, I think) suggested subsidizing basic coach travel, and letting the sleeper and dining services pay for themselves, which made sense to me.   There was a study referred to, commissioned a couple of years ago by Amtrak, that recommended eliminating sleeper and dining services altogether.    How about having Iowa Pacific handle all the luxury services, attached to coach-only Amtrak trains?

    I just went back and looked at the forum I mentioned above:

http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/200301.aspx?PageIndex=1

and looked at the report referred to again:

http://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/dot/files/pdfdocs/CR-2005-068.pdf

and realized that it that it did not outright recommend elimination of the luxury services, but to consider it on a case by case basis.   Still it might be worth considering having Iowa Pacific handle all the extra services mentioned.

Paul of Covington

   In the passenger train forum a month or two ago, where as usual, the subject got around to justifying subsidies, someone (Paul Milenkovic, I think) suggested subsidizing basic coach travel, and letting the sleeper and dining services pay for themselves, which made sense to me.   There was a study referred to, commissioned a couple of years ago by Amtrak, that recommended eliminating sleeper and dining services altogether.    How about having Iowa Pacific handle all the luxury services, attached to coach-only Amtrak trains?

Correct me if I am wrong but if a coach-only Amtrak train is being subsidized, then wouldn't the Iowa Pacific (or any other company) that runs the first class accommodations be making a profit off of a government subsidy?  In the above example, it is assumed that the coach-only train is assumed to not make a profit and thus would need to receive a taxpayer subsidy in order to run.  The issue for me occurs when you hook up Iowa Pacific passenger cars on to the train: would Iowa Pacific pay Amtrak the cost to haul its First Class cars such that a taxpayer subsidy would not be needed. If the Amtrak train is still losing money even with Iowa Pacific cars attached to the train, then the train would need a taxpayer subsidy to operate and thus Iowa Pacific would be making a profit of a taxpayer subsidy. 

How would this business plan be justified if for an example Amtrak receives $10,000 from taxpayers to run a train that Iowa Pacific make $10,000 off of by running the train's first class services?  A casual observer would look at that and say, well if Amtrak had run the first class service, the $10,000 profit would have just be used to cover what would have been subsidized.  Expanding on this simple example, if Iowa Pacific made a $15,000 profit off a $10,000 subsidy, then the casual observer would say the train would have made a $5,000 profit had Amtrak just run the first class service and that $5,000 profit could have been used to cover the cost of another Amtrak train that did not cover its operating cost thus reducing Amtrak's overall taxpayer subsidy for the entire national network by an additional $5,000.

We here in Colorado still very much miss our Ski Train (Summer & Winter) and would love to see it come back...

The operation of the IP first-class service would have the same effect as all the haulage that Amtrak does for other private owners... be applied to the bottom line, which, in turn (at least in theory) lessens the need to add to what Amtrak is getting off tax payers.

    I don't know, (but assume), that under it's current plan IP will be paying Amtrak for the cost of hauling its equipment.   The same would apply if IP handled all of the sleepers, etc.   They would pay Amtrak the cost of hauling the additional load and handle the rest of the logistics themselves with no subsidy.

If you want to eliminate the features that make trains TRAINS -- food and beverage service, sleepers on the overnighters -- you should eliminate the trains altogether, in all but the well-known corridors, and save the entire subsidy. There's nothing that an all-coach train can do that a bus or plane can't.    

If I own a private car and it has a current Amtrak inspection, they will haul it on their existing trains for $2.10 a mile (last time I looked) plus some charges for switching services, parking and the like.  Additional cars on the same movement are $1.90 up to the point at which additional engines are needed.  That is something around $2,000 for one car one way on their medium distance routes -- say New Orleans to Chicago.  The additional cost to Amtrak for doing that is some diesel fuel.

To Amtrak that is pretty close to found money, and it has the effect of reducing the subsidy needed from the public at large.   Those of you who are concerned that I might somehow make a profit on the move are missing the point -- it is a win-win situation.