A friend of mine has just bought a new home, and will be getting a basement with some room for a layout (see figure below) - the rooms potensially useful for a model railroad are labeled:
a) Storage 1 (upper left hand corner), 13' 3" x 9' 9" - layout in front of inspection hatch for crawl space must be removable, window is high on wall and won't get in the way for model railroading, door can be reversed to open outwards if necessary
b) Storage 2 (upper right corner), 9' 8" x 9' 6". Window is high on wall and won't get in the way for a layout.
c) Storage 3 (center) is a small room, about 4' 2" x 6' 3" - might possibly be used for some staging.
The wall between rooms Storage 1, Storage 2 and storage 3 are concrete wall, which cannot be removed without a massive amount of work, but one or a few narrow train tunnels could be knocked through the wall between these rooms.
The doors probably can be changed to open out of the rooms.
His design goal is to try to fit in a small point to point railroad line, as a collection of shadow boxes connected by hidden tracks, in the style used by Canadian Andreas Keller down in Australia, see this web site: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~andkeller/page8.htm
If possible, he would love a chance for a sneak-by allowing continuous running over part of the layout for running in engines and display running.
He will be running H0 scale sized steam engines - 2-8-0s, 2-8-0s with short passenger trains (about 70' long passenger cars), or sets of small four axle freight cars - about 36' to 40' long cars, normal train lengths about 5 feet, max train length about 6 feet. Desired curve radius is around 24" radius.
Track plan and scenery wise, he is thinking rural Norwegian small towns - not much industries etc - an archtypical town track plan would have maybe a passing siding and a couple of industry spurs.
N scale is not an option for him - he already have a collection of very good H0 scale brass engines he wants to run. He also have a small three section layout he would like to try to fit into the track, if possible - it is illustrated placed against a wall in the largest store room.
Operations will either be single operator or at most a two, maybe three operations. Desired aisles 30"-36", or wider.
In particular, my friend is fascinated by the way Andreas Keller has managed to model a junction on his layout - he would also like to try to model a junction.
I stink at visualizing multideck track plan, and I have no experience with helixes. Anyone have any suggestions on how to fold a layout into these rooms in a way that gives maybe 3-5 modeled scenes, each about 6-8 feet long, in such a way that vertical separation between decks would be about 15"-17"?
Smile, Stein
Stein just treat each level and room as a separate layout I know you can do it. Trust me.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
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Johnnny_reb Stein just treat each level and room as a separate layout I know you can do it. Trust me.
I am not so concerned about the track plan for each scene - I am thinking about the track connecting each scene - like where or whether it would be sensible to put a helix, or how to fit a nolix into the room(s), or how to stack or stagger scenes on different levels in a sensible way.
A plain point to point layout with a nolix around three walls of the biggest room (storage 1) would at 3% incline build about 10" over three walls. It obviously could be stretched to 15" between levels by sending the train on a track out of the room, through the wall, through a largish loop in the second largest room (storage 2), and back to storage 1 to complete the nolix.
The disadvantage with the nolix approach is that 1/3rd of the loop would be out of view in another room, beyond a concrete wall, where you have to walk through two other rooms (a hallway and a laundry room) to get too, and that three out of four walls in the biggest room will be taken up by the constant climb.
Trying to push in a peninsula to increase run length inside the biggest room is frustrated by those 24" radius curves needing a heaping wide peninsula for a turnback curve, which would force benchwork along the walls to be extremely narrow and aisles to be fairly claustrophobic.
So that is clearly not the way to proceed either.
In this case, some kind of helix arrangement is probably indicated, possibly with part of the helix daylighted and scenicked (did I see something like that on Jack Gutsch's Minneapolis and St. Louis layout in some article?) , and the rest of the helix accessible from a pit via a duckunder.
Mmm - about 14 foot of run length around the rear 3/4s of the helix - say 5" rise in 14 feet - about 2.8%, even allowing for fairly flat scenes along the front of the helix.
Would something like this be at all practical for a helix - say for a two deck layout:?:
Smile,Stein
To me the ideal location for a helix would be in storage room 3. It would have to be built in the room and not built outside and moved in. But by bring the track in from the lower right of storage 1. You could build a oval helix in storage 3 and link 1 & 2 thru the common wall at the upper ends of the rooms away from the helix avoiding the post. That is if the walls are block and not cast.
hi Stein,
two thoughts are on my mind.
First is a helix in another room, controlled by a camera; just two holes per level would do. I agree with you, the room is not large enough for a peninsula with a turn-back curve. Two aisles will take at least 5 ft, leaves you with three 18" wide shelves; the San Jacinto District footprint again.
A helix in the room, i would have never thought about your oval, still it seems a way to gain height without losing to much up front space. But, the next track , 5 inches above the other, has definitely not enough vertical clearance for building a scene. Unless you pull the visible track a foot forwards. Or am I wrong?
Important might be the grade. With a circle the grade will be about 2,7 %. Add drag for the curves and the effective grade is 32/R + 2,7 = 4%. In your case the effective grade will be less, depending on train-length between 3% and 3,5%
BTW, you wrote a nice posting to our young trainlover; to young to think i assume.
BTW is a 22" radius helix possible in the lower left corner?
Keep smiling
Paul
steinjr:
Aren't you usually the one with all the answers?
Sit. Meditate, grasshopper. It will come to you and you will, indeed, help your friend out.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Paulus Jas First is a helix in another room, controlled by a camera; just two holes per level would do.
First is a helix in another room, controlled by a camera; just two holes per level would do.
Agreed. It is very possible that this might very well prove to be the most sensible design - stick a helix (and perhaps some staging shelves as well) in the room labelled "Storage 2".
Paulus Jas A helix in the room, i would have never thought about your oval, still it seems a way to gain height without losing to much up front space. But, the next track , 5 inches above the other, has definitely not enough vertical clearance for building a scene. Unless you pull the visible track a foot forwards. Or am I wrong?
I don't know. Somewhere I have seen pictures of a helix daylighted on the side facing the room, with very narrow and not very high "transition scenes" - ie just the track, running past rock faces and trees.
One might conceivably be able to make scene like this being wide enough for a simple passing track scene.
5" track top to track top on level above - subtract 1" for subroadbed and track base - 4" - only one inch of headroom above the trains.
Don't know if it still would work visually if you follow a train closely, but at least your train wouldn't disappear from view for 30 or 45 feet (2 or 3 rounds of the helix), but just for 14-15" (3/4 of the way around the helix).
Paulus Jas Important might be the grade. With a circle the grade will be about 2,7 %. Add drag for the curves and the effective grade is 32/R + 2,7 = 4%. In your case the effective grade will be less, depending on train-length between 3% and 3,5%
Good point. Locomotives will be heavy (new brass engines with good traction), trains fairly short - free rolling wheels - about 4 feet of cars behind the engine, for a max train length of about 5 feet).
I will have to get my friend to do some tests to see how well his engines pulls on 3.5% effective grade.
Paulus Jas BTW is a 22" radius helix possible in the lower left corner?
No, I don't think so - he is a fan of steam engines, and those beasties pretty much need 24" minimum curves.
one concern about the shoebox design. Does your friend accept to go around the corner? Otherwise you will loose some length, a turntable tucked in the corner might not be possible.
Trainlength will be pretty much limited to 3 or 4 feet.
BTW my idea was to pull a visible track out every second turn or so. With 8 or 10 inches distance scenes above each other might be fun to watch.
Smile
Paulus Jas hi Stein, one concern about the shoebox design. Does your friend accept to go around the corner? Otherwise you will loose some length, a turntable tucked in the corner might not be possible. Trainlength will be pretty much limited to 3 or 4 feet.
I think he will be just fine with scenes wrapping around a corner.
Paulus Jas BTW my idea was to pull a visible track out every second turn or so. With 8 or 10 inches distance scenes above each other might be fun to watch.
Ah - I hadn't spotted that distinction. Good point. I'll take these points back to my friend and see what he thinks about these ideas.
Btw - I finally found that picture that had been lurking somewhere in some back corner of my brain. Jack Gutsch's Minneapolis and St. Louis, Great Model Railroads 2007, page 111.
A single turn helix with 5 1/2" railhead to railhead, and an opening in the fascia that is merely 3" high, showing a maybe 4-5" deep scene.Looks pretty good in the picture, and he reports that operators often stop what they are doing to watch as someone else's train is ascending or descending the helix.
great pic, it certainly is looking nice.
hi svein and stein
just a quick drawing:
Svein,
Well, since this is your NEW home, I would knock out the wall between storage 1 and 2. You could leave 12 to 18 inches of wall coming out from both sides and possibly the top, unless it will be just as easy and cheap to clear it all out. I think you would be much happier in the long run.Barring that, how about a double door size opening between the two rooms in the center? Just cut it open, but don't frame it up. This could be for installing a double door when you get ready to sell, or don't, and just let the new owner install one. This opening could be used as the main layout / train access between the two rooms without putting a bunch of smaller holes in the wall for train tunnels. In this case, an oval helix could be used between the two rooms, but it might have to be in a figure-eight configuration, or lop-sided, as it goes through the doors.Again, barring that, I think your idea of using storage 2 for the workshop, storage, staging, and helix is a good one.As for having just one track running through a scene; I think that is limiting your main line run too much. I favor twice around the room single track main lines, and tastefully done, it works well. My current layout is that way. (Link in my signature at the bottom, if you want to look.)
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Hi Svein,
You could do away with a space eating helix or the possibly too steep grades of a nolix by using a trainelevator on one wall behind the scenes to get from one level to another. It could double as a staging yard too...
Naomi Immeker
Content removed due to a completely frak'ed up and incompetent Kalmbach customer service.
Svein Elmer;The house was built in 1955, so it's not exactly new, but it's new to us. Actually, my initial idea was to knock down the entire wall between Storage 1 and 2, or at least part of it, but then I began to worry about the structural integrity and the support of the floor beams and walls above. There is a wall directly above this one with a double door size opening in the center, and I don't know how the floor is supported at this point yet. Also, the ceiling height in the basement is only just over 6'2" (I'm about 6' tall, and can just manage to stand upright without banging my head in the ceiling), which makes it impossible to leave any support for the upstairs floor without having to duck under it to reach the other room. Svein
Elmer;The house was built in 1955, so it's not exactly new, but it's new to us. Actually, my initial idea was to knock down the entire wall between Storage 1 and 2, or at least part of it, but then I began to worry about the structural integrity and the support of the floor beams and walls above. There is a wall directly above this one with a double door size opening in the center, and I don't know how the floor is supported at this point yet. Also, the ceiling height in the basement is only just over 6'2" (I'm about 6' tall, and can just manage to stand upright without banging my head in the ceiling), which makes it impossible to leave any support for the upstairs floor without having to duck under it to reach the other room.
Svein
I am a do-it-yourself type person with experience in construction. But if I were in your shoes with that cast concrete wall, I would hire an engineering firm to see about removing the wall. It will be faster and safer in the long run, as they can make the determination if you need any additional supports in that area after removing the wall. I am thinking of a couple of steel pillars. Or maybe it wouldn't be feasible to remove it.
I have been following this thread for quite some time with great interest, as I am always keen to collect new and unusual ideas on how to set up a layout in tight spaces.
I like the idea of shadow boxes, each depicting an individual scene or theme very much, but find it very difficult to connect them properly. Shadow box design is very common in the UK, but they usually have 1 scene, with either a loop or fiddle yards to simulate operation.
Some time ago, I came across a multideck layout in not so big a room, which was very well made. Maybe it is food for thought for your own ideas.
You can view it here!
hi Svein
of course,
I did not draw a separate upper level, the footprint will be the same.
Svein Today is the Norwegian Constitution Day, so I'm off work. Since I'm not going to join the parade, I'll probably try out some sketches for the track plan.
Today is the Norwegian Constitution Day, so I'm off work. Since I'm not going to join the parade, I'll probably try out some sketches for the track plan.
Good luck with your track plans. It is off to the children's parade with us - Happy 17th! :-)
Hmmm ............... how do you get into Room 1: a removable lower level at the door and a high upper level to permit a duck-under? And I hope those operators aren't claustrophobic!
Dante
Mmm - suggestions:
1) Drop peninsula (or make it a lot shorter) - otherwise aisles will be really cramped for more than one operator
2) Take the whole track plan in room Storage 1 and turn it counterclockwise 90 degrees, moving the main part of the yards/towns to the right and left wall, (possibly wrapping around corner, and making the sections across the door and the inspection hatch simpler.
IMAO your are taking decisions to soon. If you accept 18" shelves, you'll need 3 x 18" = 54" for the three shelves. This leaves you with 62" for two aisles; not to bad. The number of operators is critical however. Such as the placements of stations. It would be best NOT having two stations above each other.
Exploring all alternatives, as you are doing, is the way to go.