orangeone1

So much of our western heritage was developed by the expansion and use of railroads.  Yet, we see very little use of the 1840's to 1900's railroads in modeling today.  I am building an 1860's western layout and find that the availablilty of help with rolling stock, scenery, structures and layout plans is just not there for the taking.  Please let me know if you know of any sources for this era.

Try this link. http://www.musketminiatures.com/  They have lots of stuff that will probably work.

The hardest part of building a layout in the pre-1880 era is the lack of accurate track maps.

There are lots of old 4-4-0s, old time coaches, and "wild west" train set rolling stock to be found at swap meets.

<> Most of it can be reworked into respectable models.

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<>Here is a  book to get you started:

Civil War Railroads and Models by Edward Porter Alexander

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 You might check out these books by John H White.

The American Railroad Freight Car: From the Wood-Car Era to the Coming of Steel (Paperback)

The American Railroad Passenger Car (Johns Hopkins Studies in the History of Technology) (Part 1) (Paperback) and volume 2

This site has some kits:

http://www.btsrr.com/

Also check out historical sites for places you are interested in.

And this book on Carstens site http://carstensbookstore.com/mowiwe.html

Enjoy

Paul

I can see why you feel "help with rolling stock, scenery, structures and layout plans" is not readily available for 19^th century Western modeling.  But I'm not sure that the fault lies with manufacturers. True, the big companies that have come to dominate the model railroad industry mainly cater to fans of the so-called transition and contemporary eras who make up the bulk of the market.  But that's because they are not on the whole very innovative,  and having discovered what most modelers in the past preferred, they, like GM and Chrysler, will continue to churn out ready to run products for those eras until they too go bankrupt. I would, however, except Bachmann from that general rule. The line of On30 equipment they have developed demonstrates how an innovative approach can create new markets-- was there any sign beforehand that modelers wanted old-time stock in an off gauge?

That line also provides a good source of ready to run narrow gauge models appropriate to a Western setting, if you are willing to accept the odd gauge and their somewhat large size. And it has been increasingly supported by small manufacturers, who as to be expected, are far quicker than the big companies to spot and test new niches. A quick search of On30 listings on-line will  reveal many sources of  kits for Western structures, rolling stock,  as well as layout plans and even flex track.  For that matter, you can also  look into O scale standard gauge. SMR is producing exquisite Americans and Moguls in that scale (albeit at hefty prices), and small firms like BTS are coming out with a selection of freight stock and many structure kits. As for scenery, the Western locales are the same whether in the 1870s or 1970s,  and  firms like Scenery Express can supply plenty of items appropriate to Western settings.

If you lack the space for O scale, you can also consider modeling narrow gauge Western roads in smaller scales. There isn't much ready to run equipment for earlier eras in these scale, particularly in Hon3 whose followers and manufactures seemed as fixed on the depression era as mainstream modelers on the post WW II period. But Railmaster has a great line of locomotives kits for the 1870s-1880s,  and there are a number of other small firms producing kits for appropriate rolling stock and structures.  Take a look at what Paul Scoles has accomplished in this scale modeling the early Pacific Northwest.

On the other hand, if you want to model so-called standard gauge (which really didn't prevail until the 1880s)  on the High Plains during the height of the great cattle drives of the 1860s and ‘70s in HO scale,  you do have a problem, particularly with regard to motive power. BTS, Alkem, Amesville Shops, Silver Crash, Bitter Creek, to name but a prominent few firms, all produce kits for mid-century freight stock.  And Labelle still offers its line of 1880s freight and passenger stock. But no one currently offers an appropriate locomotive  in either ready to run or kit form. Nor for that matter is there much available second hand unless you are willing to pay for old brass models like the Balboa Centennial models or the PFM V&T Reno.  The Mantua General is a possibility, too, and though it's far from an accurate model,  it is at least a true HO model, unlike the AHM/IHC Americans which were built to 00 scale (along with over-sized flanges to suit European track). Why there have been so few accurate models offered in HO  of the classic American engine, the  mid-19^th century 4-4-0, is a mystery to me.  But their lack has been and still remains the single greatest bar to a wider modeling of Victorian railroad modeling, whether of an Eastern or Western sort. Bachmann's recently released Richmond  4-4-0 may give some hope for a change,  but it represents an 1890s engine as  refitted  in the ‘20's.

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 The only way to do REAL common carrier American 19th century narrow gauge at an affordable level is 55n3. THREE foot narrow gauge is REAL common carrier American narrow gauge. Bachmann even built us a 4-4-0:

and cars:

If you want to build affordable REAL three foot narrow gauge on HO track visit:

http://www.55n3.org/

Thank you if you visit

Harold

Smaller scale models (like HO scale) of the 4-4-0 barely have the power to move themselves, let alone a decent-sized train up any kind of grade.  Mogul (2-6-0) models make more practical road locomotives.  Let the American-type (4-4-0) be switchers of the yard.

I built an old west ghost town on my HO scale home layout using building plans from a book I found on the Internet entitled, "HO Scale Wild West Structures You Can Build."  The booklet contains plans for 20 structures along with a list of supplies for each.  Acquiring the scratchbuilding materials was the biggest problem.

The booklet is available from Mark J. Bigelow,DBA James Publications, 1006 Landings Boulevard, West Palm Beach, Florida 33413.  jamespub@aol.com  Ph: 561-434-2944.

You can see the results on my web site at http://members.cox.net/cacole2

The October 2009 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman had an article about civil war era modeling.  There was also an Old Time Railroading insert in the same issue that showed some of the models available from a few of the manufacturers already mentioned above.

orangeone1

....I am building an 1860's western layout and find that the availablilty of help with rolling stock, scenery, structures and layout plans is just not there for the taking.  Please let me know if you know of any sources for this era.

You've been given a lot of advice and pointers.  I highly recommend the Yahoo groups mentioned.

Please define 1860s western layout a little bit more.  As was already pointed out, there was almost nothing in 1860 west of the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers, except in California.  The building of the transcontinental opened the rest of the West for railroad building.  The 1870s saw railroads being planned everywhere, but very few in the west actually got started until the end of the 1870s and/or into the 1880s.  By 1890, the construction of many Western railroads were approaching completion, with some construction and expansion continuing through the 1920s.  Raising the necessary capital and the frequent recessions of the latter part of the 19th Century raised havoc with completing construction.

Good, accurate locomotives for the era are a continuing sore spot in HO.  Bachmann makes their trainset quality (supposedly improved in recent production) 4-4-0s.  Mantua/Tyco Generals are out of production, but are still easily obtainable.  The General is actually a model of the 1870s version of the engine after rebuilding.  AHM/Rivarossi/IHC? 4-4-0s are somewhat over size and have flanges that need to be turned down to run on any reasonably scaled rail.  Bachmann's Spectrum Ma & Pa 4-4-0 is a reasonable model of an 1890s design.  The Spectrum 4-6-0 can be backdated to 1890s without too much work, as can the Roundhouse 4-4-0, 2-6-0, and 2-8-0.  One of the nicest 1880s shells is the Baldwin 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 imported by Model Power, and still available from Fratcheschi.  But the mechanism is terrible.  Tyco 1890s 4-6-0 and 4-8-0 shells are considerably over scale size, but the mechanisms are fairly decent.  Roundhouse Shays can be backdated to late 1890s with a new boiler and domes that are commercially available.

Accurate track is also not commercially available.  If you want accurate track, code 40 or 55 rail spiked - 4 spikes per tie - and no tie plates is the way to go.  Stub turnouts were pretty common until later in the era.  Dirt ballast was not unusual.  Ballast only reached tie top height in the center of the track, with most of the ends of the ties left exposed.  Depending on availability of nearby saw mills, ties would be either sawn or hand-hewn from logs with adzes.

Most layout plans are far better suited to 19th Century modeling than later eras.  The short 6ft sidings look much better with a 4-4-0 and 12 car freight than a 2-8-2 pulling 10 cars of later vintage.  Or even worse, a modern diesel and 5-6 appropriate cars.  Of course, getting an HO 4-4-0 to pull 12 cars takes a little skill on the part of the modeler.  A 65ft turntable will handle anything that is period appropriate.  18" radius won't cause major problems.

Fred W

....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....

fwright

Accurate track is also not commercially available.  If you want accurate track, code 40 or 55 rail spiked - 4 spikes per tie - and no tie plates is the way to go. 

I wouldn't bother with spikes on every tie unless modeled scenes are viewed with one's nose along the track.  This close-up view has spikes barely visible.  I can't imagine them being visible at normal viewing distances of 100 scale feet or more.  Another consideration is that almost all model spikes are much larger than prototype, so it is best to try to hide them as best one can.

Mark

Welcome to the forum Amiigo.

An interesting era and, as a history major with an "American Frontier and American Frontier Traditions" emphasis of study, one with significant potential if one could locate an adequate supply of equipment to do an adequate job of modeling. Very early on in my modeling endeavors I gave thought to going the 1880-1910 route with a railroad called Cascade and South Fork Valley but I soon discovered that materials were extremely short so it came to naught. I haven't paid a lot of attention lately but it seems to me that there was more equipment available thirty or forty years ago than at present.

Look, if you do launch into this era Pretty Please stay away from that hoariest of Western mythology, the shoot out in the middle of Main Street. Bill Hickok and a guy named Tutt took umbrage with each other at the city park in Springfield, Missouri in 1865 . . . . . . . . .  at a distance of 75 yards . . . . . . . . . . with the notorious inaccuracy of the cap and ball weapons of the era the true nature of a Western gunfight was that the winner--Hickok in this case--was usually very, very lucky. The loser--Tutt in this case--was usually very, very dead! 

If you need more accuracy, try building stub turnouts the were the norm in the 1860s and installig link & pin couplers are your locos and rolling stock.

The rails are oversize as is the coupler on the flatcar. The loco is over size also.

Yes, still not accurate, I had to compromise.

Rich

And yet pasta is usually much better the second day.

It's been my experience that pasta peaks on the third day, if it lasts that long (which it usually doesn't).

Andre - Indulging in a remembrance of things pasta.

Roundhouse's 36' freight cars are more typical of cars from 1900 to 1930.  Their Overland passenger cars are closer to the 1870s. 

If you are talking cars of the 1860s the TYPICAL car would have had a curved canvas (or flat tin) roof, about a 12" projecting sill on each end, two truss rods without turnbuckles, brakes on one truck only, no air brakes, a body about 30 feet by 8 1/2 and an overall length of about 32'.  typically no corner steps, ladders on the car ends only, often the brake wheel was mounted vertically on the end of the car. 

i suggest consulting John H White Jr's American Railroad Freight Car which is the definitive reference of the wood freight car era.

Okay.Four States West Of The Mississippi Had Railroads Prior To The Civilk War:
Texas-The Texas and New Orleans*(**Not to be confused with the later SP Subsidiary)ran from New Orleans to Houston and as far west as Alleyton near present day Columbus.

Iowa-The Rock Island built a bridge over the Mississippi in the 1850's,so Iowa had some trains prior to the Civil War.

Missouri-The Pacific Railroad,later to become the modern Missouri Pacific,had a line from St.Louis to Westport*(*Modern Day Kansas City)in the 1850's.During theCivil War both sides fought over the line.

California-There was some railroad around Sacramento prior to the Civil War.

Now as far as modeling the Old West,bear in mind that technically railroading in the American West runs the gamut from the Rock Island bridging the Mississippi and running trains into Iowa in the 1850's to the Mexican Revolution of 1916,so during that time frame you'd have 4-4-0"Teakettles"with Balloon Stacks to fairly modern Moguls;Consoldations;Prairies and Decapods!!

And the American West isn't all just one big Hollywood Backlot Geographically and Culturally!!
Texas and Oklahoma are culturally and geographically where the south ends and the west begins,so you'll have pine forests in the eastern half and rolling plains and prairies in the western half of Oklahoma while Texas has the Piney Woods in East Texas;Coastal Plains;Blackland Prairies near Austin;the brush country south of San Antonio;and the Desert from Del Rio to El Paso not to mention the Mexican Border and the Panhandle!!

Also,New Mexico and Arizona have a shared Anglo/Mexican/Native Culture.

And not every train robber operated all over the West:THe James-Younger Gang mostly operated in Missouri and Iowa while"Black Jack"Ketchum mainly operated in Texas and New Mexico.

Harry Tracy mainly operated in Oregon and Washington while The wild Bunch was mainly in Wyoming and Montana.

However,the men and women who rode the"Outlaw Trail"had hideouts and safe havens stretching from Canada to Mexico.

There's a famous group photo of the Wild Bunch taken in Fort Worth in the early 1900's.

Fort Worth's(in)famous"Hell's Half Acre"was a notorious"rred Light district"north of downtown Cowtown that was popular with many of the West's most notorious outlaws.

Now as far as modeling a typical Wild West Scene-Blair Line's General Store fit's the bill as well as some of the BTS Buildings.and Woodland Scenics has a series that'll work well.

Remember too though,there were quite a number of major cities on the frontier like San Antonio;Fort Worth;ElPaso;Denver;Kansas City;Cheyenne and San Francisco,so some of SS Ltd's Victoria Falls series wouldn't be too out of place on an Old West themed layout!!1

Hope this helps.

Wrong thread!

 http://alkemscalemodels.net/ASMMain/FlatCar.html