BNSF rebuilding GP35s into GP39-3s

I assume that these are very similiar to the BN GP39V/M rebuild program? But obv, microprocessor equipped as the -3 indicates...

Wonder how many 645's they can find to replace the 567 prime movers? There is plenty of work for these 4 axle middleweights.

mudchicken

Wonder how many 645's they can find to replace the 567 prime movers? There is plenty of work for these 4 axle middleweights.

This would be the 2nd rebuild of these locos.  ATSF did a major rebuild/overhaul of their GP30/35s in the early 1980s.  The work included simplifying the GP35's complicated electrical system though, IIRC, they also got 645 engine blocks.  What amazes me is that BNSF is retiring the former ATSF GP30s while keeping GP35s, which were only 2-3 years newer.  ATSF’s designation for these after the early 80s rebuild was GP30u and GP35u. 

What is the horsepower on this units?

Lyon_Wonder

 

mudchicken

Wonder how many 645's they can find to replace the 567 prime movers? There is plenty of work for these 4 axle middleweights.

This would be the 2nd rebuild of these locos.  ATSF did a major rebuild/overhaul of their GP30/35s in the early 1980s.  The work included simplifying the GP35's complicated electrical system though, IIRC, they also got 645 engine blocks.  What amazes me is that BNSF is retiring the former ATSF GP30s while keeping GP35s, which were only 2-3 years newer.  ATSF’s designation for these after the early 80s rebuild was GP30u and GP35u. 

The GP30 electrical cabinet is different size and shape from that in the GP35 ( taller and shallower) meaning they would require a customized layout at greater expense. That was enough to lower the ROI on modifying them. The ATSF rebuilds did not receive 645 blocks or power assemblies when rebuilt previously.

Lyon_Wonder

 

mudchicken

Wonder how many 645's they can find to replace the 567 prime movers? There is plenty of work for these 4 axle middleweights.

This would be the 2nd rebuild of these locos.  ATSF did a major rebuild/overhaul of their GP30/35s in the early 1980s.  The work included simplifying the GP35's complicated electrical system though, IIRC, they also got 645 engine blocks.  What amazes me is that BNSF is retiring the former ATSF GP30s while keeping GP35s, which were only 2-3 years newer.  ATSF’s designation for these after the early 80s rebuild was GP30u and GP35u. 

Too bad CN wouldn't rebuild some of their four axle units instead of retiring them all. I've seen switching around yards in my area done by SD70-75I and C44-9W units because thre were no suitable four axle units too use!

Could the BNSF rebuilders perform the same service for other railroads?

Andrew

I've switched with SD70's and they are hard on the rail and about jerk you off the side of a rail car. Of course, the new Genset units, either tri-power or all electric are unable to operate for 12 hours without breaking down.

Andrew Falconer

Could the BNSF rebuilders perform the same service for other railroads?

Andrew

 I'm sure they could, If BNSF wanted to get into the RR supply business. NS of course does contract locomotive assembly and rebuilding at their Altoona facility. Given that there are a number of firms in the rebuilding market I don't see why BNSF would want in......

Before the merger, ATSF had rebuilding programs in the 70s and 80s at it’s Cleburne, Topeka and San Bernardino shops, producing rebuilds as the CF7 and SD26, the one-of-kind EMD-repowering of a Baldwin switcher, known as the BEEP, and rebuilding GP7/9, GP30/35s and SD/F/FP45s.  Don’t know if ATSF did rebuilding work for other roads?  Ditto for IC/ICG’s Paducah shops, though a lot of their rebuilds ended up on other roads.   

Did BNSF actually rebuild these units themselves or did they higher a contract shop to do it? I know they have a lot of work done by companies like CEECO and NRE.

Boomer Red

Did BNSF actually rebuild these units themselves or did they higher a contract shop to do it? I know they have a lot of work done by companies like CEECO and NRE.

According to someone on the locophotos forum, the rebuilds are being done by BNSF's Topeka shop and at Relco in Albia, IA.
 

Lyon_Wonder

Before the merger, ATSF had rebuilding programs in the 70s and 80s at it’s Cleburne, Topeka and San Bernardino shops, producing rebuilds as the CF7 and SD26, the one-of-kind EMD-repowering of a Baldwin switcher, known as the BEEP, and rebuilding GP7/9, GP30/35s and SD/F/FP45s.  Don’t know if ATSF did rebuilding work for other roads?  Ditto for IC/ICG’s Paducah shops, though a lot of their rebuilds ended up on other roads.   

 I have 2 different editions of the 2nd Diesel Spotters guide which have fairly comprehensive info on both Railroad and contractor rebuilding programs up to that point (late 80's-very early 90's) and I can't find any reference to ATSF undertaking contract work. Of course there are a number of smaller RR's that purchased ATSF- rebuilt locomotives once Santa Fe retired them. The CF7's are a prime example...

 IC/ICG definitely did contract work for other railroads before selling their rebuilding operations off to Precision National.

  Normally these kind of 're-manufacturer' jobs strips the prime mover job down and replaces the 567 'power packs' with 645 'power packs'.  Counterbalance weights on the crankshaft need to be changes(due to the change in mass of the new 645 power packs).  A new electrical control system is usually installed as well(that '-3' designation).  Usually there is little or no increase in horsepower, as the same main generator is still used.  The advantage is that they can reduce inventory of spare parts by standardizing on just 645 parts for these older engines.  The 567 parts supply is getting pretty thin. 

  The 645 'power packs' will drop into the 567 block because the 'stroke' is the same.  Just the 'bore' in the power pack is different.  Older 567B engines like in GP7's many times are upgraded with a 'BC' kit, and then get the 645 'power packs' as well.  I think the BN 'GP28' program did this with a series of older GP9's.  They even got new 'Sparten' stype hoods/cab in the process.  IIRC, that program raised the horsepower to something like 1800 or 1850 hp.  The 'GP39' program that BN did with old GP30/35's a number of years ago set the horse power to 2250, and added an upgraded electrical control system.  This program sounds very similar.

  The note about the GP30 electrical cabinet being thinner than the GP35 is true.  However the new control systems offered have a lot smaller 'foot print' and will fit in the GP30 with no problem - witness the ex-BN 'GP39' program of over 10 years ago!

  The market for a good 'medium' horsepower road switcher is strong.  The 'Big 2' really have no offerings, and the jury is still out on the 'Genset' crowd.  A lot of motive power departments are watching to see if the maintenence costs of the '3 sets of everything' genset locomotives will becone maintenece hogs as they age.  There are basically 3 times the parts to fail down the road as they units age.  Swapping out a skid mounted diesel/generator package sounds good on paper, but the unit is still unavailable when there is a failure.  Some of the older UP/BNSF gensets have been having problems over the past year.  One of the poster's on the forum mentions that they are lucky to get a full weeks work out of their units without a road failure.  I am sure programs like the GP39-3 are a 'hedge bet'....

Jim

jrbernier

  Normally these kind of 're-manufacturer' jobs strips the prime mover job down and replaces the 567 'power packs' with 645 'power packs'.  Counterbalance weights on the crankshaft need to be changes(due to the change in mass of the new 645 power packs).  A new electrical control system is usually installed as well(that '-3' designation).  Usually there is little or no increase in horsepower, as the same main generator is still used.  The advantage is that they can reduce inventory of spare parts by standardizing on just 645 parts for these older engines.  The 567 parts supply is getting pretty thin. 

  The 645 'power packs' will drop into the 567 block because the 'stroke' is the same.  Just the 'bore' in the power pack is different.  Older 567B engines like in GP7's many times are upgraded with a 'BC' kit, and then get the 645 'power packs' as well.  I think the BN 'GP28' program did this with a series of older GP9's.  They even got new 'Sparten' stype hoods/cab in the process.  IIRC, that program raised the horsepower to something like 1800 or 1850 hp.  The 'GP39' program that BN did with old GP30/35's a number of years ago set the horse power to 2250, and added an upgraded electrical control system.  This program sounds very similar.

  The note about the GP30 electrical cabinet being thinner than the GP35 is true.  However the new control systems offered have a lot smaller 'foot print' and will fit in the GP30 with no problem - witness the ex-BN 'GP39' program of over 10 years ago!

  The market for a good 'medium' horsepower road switcher is strong.  The 'Big 2' really have no offerings, and the jury is still out on the 'Genset' crowd.  A lot of motive power departments are watching to see if the maintenence costs of the '3 sets of everything' genset locomotives will becone maintenece hogs as they age.  There are basically 3 times the parts to fail down the road as they units age.  Swapping out a skid mounted diesel/generator package sounds good on paper, but the unit is still unavailable when there is a failure.  Some of the older UP/BNSF gensets have been having problems over the past year.  One of the poster's on the forum mentions that they are lucky to get a full weeks work out of their units without a road failure.  I am sure programs like the GP39-3 are a 'hedge bet'....

Jim

 I'm curious as to why you state that the "Big 2 really have no offerings" when KCS has just ordered a number of GP22ECO and SD22ECO units from EMD? These are retired GP/SD40 cores remanufactured with new 8-710 engines and new electrical systems.

 GE is also offering a similiar ES22B which can be built on an old frame or completely new. See Page 10 of the following recent GE powerpoint presentation:

http://www.fasterfreightcleanerair.com/pdfs/Presentations/FFCACA2008/Pete%20Lawson.pdf

When you consider the great success that EMD had with the BL20-2 and that GE had with the Super-7 Series, it may not be unreasonable to say that the two major builders have no offerings in the intermediate horsepower range.

  I agree that the EMD 710ECO program is interesting(and the new GEVO V6 as well).  But both of these programs have been 're-motor' on your old frame ideas that just have not sold very well in the past.  It is good to see the KCS order.  Maybe next year there will be enough orders to change my mind!  EMD did something like 3 BL20 engines and GE produced something like maybe 10 'Super 7' engines out of old cores.  The track record for the 'Big 2' is not real good in this market.  There is a higher profit margin when you build new.  Rebuilding 'cores' is like 'rehabing' an old house.  Unless you are going to put a lot of 'sweat equity' into it, you are paying professional labor rates to tear out the old stuff and install the new stuff!

Jim

 The BL20-2 had pretty much a new body on the old frame.  One of the GP22s reused the GP40 body, pretty much no external modifications.  The 8-710 seems to bolt in place of the 16-645, with some extra room at the back.  It appears to me that repowering with 710ECOs might be cheaper than the way they were doing things. 

Wabtec/MPI has also been getting a decent number of orders for similiar units (MP/GP20) of late so it's not like there's no market. What will make this type of remanufacturing more common IMO is the fact that the next level of EPA Emission regs. will essentially make it impossible to do complete rebuilds on older (particularly 645 powered) locomotives. That is unless some new and costly pollution control systems can be economically developed (UP is experimenting with this).

Besides the electronics, wiring, and prime mover upgrades, how much "cosmetic" work is done on these major rebuilds?

 For example:

Cab controlls replaced? Updated to current type "desktop" or left as old "console"?

Sheet metal, windows, toilet, seats, flooring, air conditioning?

In other words, are these rebuilds made nice, or just functional?

I doubt they would install desktop controls as these have pretty much been eliminated. Even the new units coming from EMD and GE are now equiped with an updated version of the old console type.

the units are most likely having the cab's completely refurbished as part of the rebuild process. They don't replace the existing control stand with desktop controls, though a new control stand may be installed as part of the upgrade process.

 Bryan Jones

The ATSF GP30s maybe going away, but it looks like BNSF is still keeping their former BN GP30 rebuilds.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1467701 

nody

Besides the electronics, wiring, and prime mover upgrades, how much "cosmetic" work is done on these major rebuilds?

 For example:

Cab controlls replaced? Updated to current type "desktop" or left as old "console"?

Sheet metal, windows, toilet, seats, flooring, air conditioning?

 

In other words, are these rebuilds made nice, or just functional?

 There is a recent DIESEL ERA article about the earlier Burlington Northern GP39M/V/E program and these locomotives were completely remanufactured to the point that BN considered them "new"

E

I finally caught one of these engines out in the open....I believe it is the first one in Los Angeles area...

You cannot rebalence the crankshaft. There's parts to change on the camshaft counterwieghts. A 567 BC will not accept anything but 567 B heads you cannot put 645 PAs in a 567B or BC. The 567 C,D etc. have many parts available

 So... they do still have 8.5-inch cylinders? They're still 16-cylinder, despite the -39 designation? And still turbocharged?

Randy,

  You are correct - it is the camshaft weights that need to be changed.  You can drop '645' power assemblies into a 567BC engine - BN has lots of engines like.  I am not sure about the 'heads' you are referring to.

Timz,

  Yes the 'GP39' program uses the original V16 567D3 & 567D3A prime movers.  And they are turbocharged.

Jim