I have a few Walthers #8 RH turnout on my layout. All three tracks are caulked down securely right up to the turnout. The turnout itself is not caulked down. When my 2-10-4 goes over it about three times it goes out of gauge. I think I will have to fasten the turnout down to solve the problem which I would rather not do. Like I said I have a few curved turnouts on the layout but I can't figure out why this one is causing me grief. Any thoughts on the matter appreciated. Thanks
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Brent, I think there must be something else going on.
First, I expect your Texas type has a blind driver, maybe two? So the driver base is not the impediment here. That curved #8 will have an outside radius near 30-32".
One of the flanged drivers on the steamer is not loose, allowing the flanges to creep inward or outward on the axle? Pressure at some point in the traverse of the turnout may cause one wheel to migrate a bit, and later the flange snags the guard or frog point? I'm not sure where the snag is....
Have you actually gauged the points in five places down their lengths...they are quite long? Maybe one of them needs some tweaking, but I would doubt it....a lot.
Is the throwbar supported throughout its sliding range? If one side is a bit low, it allows that point to sag a bit, and the flange on that side will not get its guidance...engine slips between the rails partway along, or the pilot truck does it right away.
I would not glue the turnout. I have done a lot of cardstock shimming, lemme tell ya, but that is the way to get a turnout to work. It needs to be planar and well supported...no sagging places! But I have shimmed the throwbar occasionally to get the one point to rise up to where the flanges make contact and go the direction you want it to go when the points are thrown.
One other fix may be that you'll have to glue/epoxy a thin shim against the flange face of one of the guards or wing rails at the frog. Sometimes they are set too far from the weight-bearing rails and essentially do nobody much good...certainly not a heavy long engine like the Texas type.
Crandell
Does the track actually go out of gauge - the distance between rails changes?
Or does the track go out of alignment where the turnout joins the 3 tracks?
In the 1st case, you have a failure of fastenings in the turnout itself. The "spike heads" on the ties are no longer gripping the rail. That would require the turnout to be repaired or replaced.
In the 2nd case, the turnout is chinging its location slightly relative to the 3 tracks. Replacing the rail joiners might help temporarily. But you probably will have to fasten down the turnout to keep the alignment between the turnout and approach track. Soldering the rail joiners would be another option to prevent turnout movement.
A 2-10-4 has a long rigid wheel base. And a fair amount of weight, especially if approaching the turnout at speed. And a curved #8 turnout has a much sharper inner radius than most people think. Some of the problem could be that the inner curve of the turnout is just too sharp for the locomotive.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I had the curved tunouts. Because the frog points are so narrow, it's easy to pick the frog.
Case in point, I had a walthers curved turnout (inner R24" outer R28") I thought my T-1 (R22 min) would easily take. Everything (2-8-8-2) (4-8-2) (2-8-4) (2-6-6-2) (2-6-6-6) but my lowly 2-8-0 and 0-8-0's would pick the frogs and ride over them. Best I can figure it was trying to pick the path (the larger radius) to which it would go around easier. Shiming the inside rails before the frog didn't seem to help much.
I found out that if you are going to use curved turnouts, that you need a much larger radius that what your train would normally negotiate.
If somebody has a solution, I would love to hear it.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
BATMAN I have a few Walthers #8 RH turnout on my layout. All three tracks are caulked down securely right up to the turnout. The turnout itself is not caulked down. When my 2-10-4 goes over it about three times it goes out of gauge. I think I will have to fasten the turnout down to solve the problem which I would rather not do. Like I said I have a few curved turnouts on the layout but I can't figure out why this one is causing me grief. Any thoughts on the matter appreciated. Thanks Brent
The fact that the curved turnout is not held down by caulk leads me to believe that there is movement of the entire turnout. I don't mean that it is faulty, just that it is movement. I nail down all of my track (all right, all ready, I know I should caulk it).
I have three curved turnouts on my layout, and all of them did what is happening to you at one time. And, yes, the 2-10-4 is a major culprit. I have two 2-10-4's and they are what I use to bullet proof my turnouts. If a 2-10-4 passes the test, the turnout is good to go.
Anyhow, back to nailing (or caulking). I spend a lot of extra time nailing and re-nailing curved turnouts till I get them right.
One other question. Do all of your other steamers pass over this curved turnout without a problem?
Chances are pretty good, in my opinion, that it is neither the 2-10-4 or an out of gauge turnout. It is the movement of the turnout.
Rich
Alton Junction
I have 4 curved turnouts on my layout; 2 are Walther's/Shinohara, 1 is Peco, and one is a Fast Tracks built that I bought on Ebay. All have 32-36" radius on the outside. The Fast Tracks is by far the best of them all with virtually no problems, and I just got a second one to replace the Peco which is derailing my Hudsons about 10% of the time. I run my Big Boy, Challenger and Y6B without much problem. The Fast Track turnouts have 36" and 30" radii, but they are so smooth and flawless with all my locos. I tried everything I could with shimming and adjusting rails on the Peco and finally just decided to replace it with the Fast Tracks turnout. Just my thoughts on curved turnouts, which I think are just great looking on a layout.
Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Hmmm...I have five W/S curved Code 83 #7.5's and a single #8, and the only slightly hitchy one, believe it or not, is the #8. Some locos do a hitch at the frog. Not on the tighter turnouts, and I run some hefty steamers through them in both directions. I also have a home-made #9 turnout that is just fine in both directions with all of my varied engines, diesel or steamer alike.
If your turnout is going out of gauge, fastening it down won't help. You need to find out what is changing and fix that.
What I do in such cases is to drill some really small holes in the ties next to the rail and actually spike down the rails so they won't move once I get the problem fixed. By using the spikes, you don't necessarily have to glue it down, and you also haven't glued the rails in place in case it has to be changed.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
gandydancer19 If your turnout is going out of gauge, fastening it down won't help. You need to find out what is changing and fix that.
That's a good point. Run the 2-10-4 through the turnout until it derails. Then, get out the NMRA gauge and check the rails.
To me, "the turnout goes out of gauge" sounds like the rails themselves are no longer solidly fastened to the ties. They should be firmly attached to the plastic all the way. If not, the plastic has likely broken. You should be able to repair this using some CA, although this will be a brittle joint and may need to be redone every couple of years.
Where does the engine derail? When I think of curved turnouts, I think of flex track curving into all 3 ends. Flex track, in general, wants to go back to being straight track. So, the point where the flex track meets your turnout has sideways torque on it, and is a likely spot for a kink to develop. On my curved turnouts, that's usually the problem.
Be careful of vertical alignment, too. Take a metal ruler and slide it along the rails lengthwise. The edge should stay in contact with the rails at all times. If there are gaps, or if the ruler can "rock" over a track joint, then the whole installation is not flat (or rather "co-planer," since it should be OK if everything is on the same slope.)
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
What goes out of gauge? On the #8 curved turnout, the radius is so broad that it makes the sliding point rails very long. Of course in order to slide, they have no support under them, such as ties and spikes. So, when heavy locomotives run over the point rails, they can bend, flex, and separate out of gauge.
Could this be what is causing the problem?
I have #7 and 7.5's and small locommotives and don't seem have this problem, but the 8's must be really long and flimsy. I remember reading about this problem somewhere so you might do a search for that topic to see if that info was on this forum.
I think the solution was to CA styrene strips under the rails. Stout enough to support yet thin enough not to impede operation, if that's possible.
- Douglas
I would be interested in hearing about Peco curved turnouts from others since I have purchased 7 of them to use on my layout. Have others had problems with them as well? Am I nuts for using that many curved turnouts?
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi Dave,
I've had no problems with any of my Peco turnouts including curved ones and wyes. The Peco PL 10 switch motor and PL 13 accessory switch work very well also.
Happy Railroading
Don't Ever Give Up
If you have a spikable roadbed, you can easily spike the turnout in place because the W/S turnouts have spike holes already provided. As a matter of info, the radii of the #8 are actually 36/30.
Dante
BATMAN .....I think I will have to fasten the turnout down to solve the problem which I would rather not do.
.....I think I will have to fasten the turnout down to solve the problem which I would rather not do.
Brent, I'm wondering why you're reluctant to fasten the turnout in place. Having a turnout with moving parts being moveable itself sounds to me like an invitation for trouble. I spike mine in place when laying the track, and solder all of the rail joiners, too.
If the moulded-on spike heads have lost their grip on the rails, you can use spikes intended for handlaying to correct the problem. They don't necessarily have to be installed through the ties, either. The photo below, while not a turnout, illustrates the general idea:
Wayne
I use track nails the same way...drive them tight to the rails and let their heads cover the outer edge of the foot of the rail.
I like those blue spikes, Wayne.
hon30critter I would be interested in hearing about Peco curved turnouts from others since I have purchased 7 of them to use on my layout. Have others had problems with them as well? Am I nuts for using that many curved turnouts? Dave
I've got 3 Peco curved turnouts. The turnouts themselves have never given me any trouble. They've been in service on main lines for 5 or 6 years now.
However, it is very important to get the trackwork right adjacent to the turnouts. My curved turnouts are on the older Code 100 part of my layout, and the track there is generally Atlas flex-track. This presents a bit of a problem. The cross-sections of the Peco and Atlas Code 100 rails are different. So, a rail joiner isn't going to fit snugly on both rails. Since the flex track want to go back to being straight track, it's necessary to firmly fasten that section down, and possibly shim it to maintain both horizontal and vertical continuity at the rail head.
This is one place on my layout where I found Atlas sectional track to be of great value. I used it as a "go-between" for the Peco-to-flex-track transition. A short piece of sectional track eliminates the sideways torque on the Peco, and then the other end of the sectional track mates perfectly with the Atlas flex.
I'm not the original poster, but this is a great topic - thanks for all the replies with tips.
As a matter of general interest, the actual inner and outer radii of the Walthers code 83 curved turnouts are not at all as claimed in catalogs, websites, etc. Users are advised to measure theirs before final track planning and installation.
I measured mine by drawing sample radii lines in a part-circle on a large piece of plywood, then placing the turnout over the lines to see how closely they matched. This makes it immediately obvious that these turnouts differ quite a bit from the advertised radii.
Here are my results with a set of three of these turnouts - first the advertised radii, then the measured radii on these samples. I do not consider this information set in stone - other turnouts with same designation and same mfr may differ, making the measurement quite important, in my opinion:
Walthers code 83 advertised radii:
#7.0 inner / outer advertised 24 / 28 in; measured 21 / 28;
#7.5 inner / outer advertised 28 / 32 in; measured 25 / 31.5;
#8.0 inner / outer advertised 32 / 36 in; measured 28.5 / 38.
Again, YMMV.
Dick Chaffer / Bozeman, MT
As I have posted in the past, I agree with Dick that the actual radii of the W/S turnouts differ from the advertised. I measured in a manner similar to that described by Dick; however, I verified my findings by carefully checking with the Ribbonrail alignment guides and found somewhat different radii than he did:
#6.0 inner / outer advertised 20 / 24 in; measured 18 / 24;
#7.0 inner / outer advertised 24 / 28 in; measured 22 / 28;
#7.5 inner / outer advertised 28 / 32 in; measured 26 / 32;
#8.0 inner / outer advertised 32 / 36 in; measured 30 / 36.
I agree with him: check them if the actual radii are critical to your layout.
Hmmm..I was less generous than both of you when I determined the error for the several #7.5's I purchased. I used a trammel with marks every inch, and I found the inner route to be closer to 22", while the outer is near 28". I suppose it could be that I was sold #7's.
Wow, thanks to all of you. A wealth of information and ideas has been posted here.
After reading your post and upon a long eyeball to bench session I firmly believe I have the solution at hand. First off, it is those very long flimsy points that are going out of gauge. So much so, that the nib on the gauge goes almost to the outside of the rail. The engine on its own would go through over and over again with no ill effects, but as soon as I put a long string of freight cars on, bingo. The whole turnout seems to torque into a tighter radius thus making the gauge between the point and outside rail narrow. All the rails are still firmly attached to the ties. I think the weight of the train going around the curve just pushes at the centre of that long flimsy turnout out. I have shimmed and "T" pinned the turnout into submission with success. It will have to be fastened down permanently after a test period, but that is no big deal.
This is the first layout I have used such large turnouts on ( I finely had the space to use them ) so I have learned they need a lot of TLC. Thanks again.
selector Hmmm..I was less generous than both of you when I determined the error for the several #7.5's I purchased. I used a trammel with marks every inch, and I found the inner route to be closer to 22", while the outer is near 28". I suppose it could be that I was sold #7's. Crandell
The turnout number and advertised (not actual) radii should be molded on the underside of the ties-you can check.
Dante, thanks, but they are situated now, and I am loath to undo a finally reliable track system.
For Batman, if what you say is the case, that your mid points-rails are splaying out of gauge, the cure would be a length of PCB board, copper clad, trimmed to slide freely, and etched completely through the copper cladding between the rails. It would be soldered or bolted to the underside of the rail feet in such a way that it would be a spreader bar and slide as freely as the throwbar.
It's a thought.
That's a great idea Crandell. Thanks.
What is left unspoken, and which may very well be the fly in the ointment, Brent, is, "What effect, good, bad, or indifferent, will doing this 'fix' have on the passage of my problem steamer(s)' ability to use this turnout?" You may solve the spreading problem very effectively, but isn't the steamer telling us something about its interaction with those points rails? Will precluding the spread really make the problem go away? Maybe instead of falling between the rails it will now climb out of them. Or, it may work just peachy on that steamer, but the others will now have problems. I'd still try it, but you may have to unsolder the spreader and figure something else out.
Sorry, but is has to be said.
Actually Crandell the engine is climbing out of it now, as the long T/O is torqued in to a tighter radius the points narrow. Having the points held more securely can only help in my opinion. In any case I will see how it performs first, once I get everything aligned and held more securely in place. Those #8s are so long they are very wibbley wobbley to start, especially the points. If it still fails after a while more drastic measures will be taken.
It's too bad the manufacturers can't come up with a stiffer point rail for those long T/Os.
dante As I have posted in the past, I agree with Dick that the actual radii of the W/S turnouts differ from the advertised. I measured in a manner similar to that described by Dick; however, I verified my findings by carefully checking with the Ribbonrail alignment guides and found somewhat different radii than he did: #6.0 inner / outer advertised 20 / 24 in; measured 18 / 24; #7.0 inner / outer advertised 24 / 28 in; measured 22 / 28; #7.5 inner / outer advertised 28 / 32 in; measured 26 / 32; #8.0 inner / outer advertised 32 / 36 in; measured 30 / 36. I agree with him: check them if the actual radii are critical to your layout. Dante
Dante,
I agree with you on these measurements and notice that Walthers got it right on the outside curve every time but wrong on the inside curve every time. For me, the inside curve was the more critical measurement. I didn't particularly care what the outside curve measured. But I didn't know that when I first ordered some curved turnouts a year or so ago. I wound up returning smaller curved turnouts in favor of larger ones till I found the right mix. A real pain.
Incidentally, those are Walthers Shinohara curved turnouts.
Yes, I know. That's why I said "W/S".
Another thought for what it's worth: I have #8s, although not yet installed, and I just manually (with fingers-I don't have an extra-large, heavy loco) checked the flex in those points compared to the flex in the points of a #6 curved and a #4 non-curved, all W/S. Frankly, I detected no noticeable difference in displacement of the point rails, and the others are quite rigid. Something else going on, perhaps?
If the point rails are spreading out-of-gauge under your locomotive, this must be occurring between the frog and the throwbar. While Crandell's suggested solution will work, an even easier fix could be done by simply driving some spikes against the outer sides of the point rails when they're at the extreme end of their movement. Use your track gauge and spikes like the ones shown in my earlier picture - they're shaped like an upside-down "L". Align the points for the through route, then install spikes in several of the ties on the outside edge of the through route's point rail. Orient them so that the foot of the "L" is over the base of the rail, and push them down only far enough to clear the wheel flanges - do not seat them as you would for laying track.
Next, align the points for the diverging route and repeat the spike installation, this time placing them on the outside edge of the diverging route's point rail. The points should still move freely back and forth, but will have a "stop" at both extremities of their travel.
MisterBeasley: Thank you for the advice on using sectional track to lead into the peco turnouts. It makes a lot of sense. Much better than learning the hard way!