Layout consideration

 Hi Tom

Interesting design, with potential for L-shaped expansions (e.g., Gary interchange).  

I would imaging the benchwork is the same as for any layout.  Seems to me the 6ft width would necessitate additional vertical supports for the span.

As to the 24in radius on the mainline, I would think that is a good thing.  Looks more prototypical and allows more trouble free running of longer
"wheelbase" locos and cars.

Alan

PS  Nice to have the "cookie cutter" design provided.

Only comment I have is that to get a twice around run on both mainlines, you need to make use of the wye at Waynesboro. 

This would be a nice layout for using the plywood base "cookie-cutter" benchwork surface technique. 

Also, for benchwork lumber support strength, you generally can't go wrong with 1"x4" lumber such as a fir with little exposure to knotholes.  You can always add additional materials on top of the plywood base such as cork roadbed, or foam.  Remember, if you only use foam on the surface top that it can be unforgiving if someone inadvertently applies leaning weight to the foam.

You can obtain more bi-directional traffic control on the Indiana & Aurora RR trackplan by adding 2 pairs of turnouts between the "two wrap-around mainlines":

One pair are left-to-left turnouts, and the other pair are right-to-right turnouts. A caution would be where to place each turnout pair, as this in reality does adds an "s-curve" factor, which all turnouts in essence are to any layout.

The suggestion would be to use #6 turnouts if you can do so while #4 turnouts will also work but give your turnouts slightly sharper curves.  Look closer at the trackplan, and you'll see the layout tries to use #6 & #8 turnouts.

kf4mat

One Thing I am confused about is how do ou build the bench work for something like this? All my information is for building 4 x 8 bench work.

Jeff Wilson's beginner series book:  "Basic Model Railroad Benchwork":

Linn H Westcott's classic "How to build Model Railroad benchwork"

Smile,
Stein

Looking at the size of that layout, you're going to need at least a 7x8 space just to "fit" it in. That only leaves you 2 feet on the right side if you need to go over and adjust things in your staging. Now add in space for your doorway into the room, etc, and you see that this "little" 6x7 takes up a lot more space then 6x7.

What is the actual space that you have available? Where are your windows, doors, closets, etc? What "obstacles" do you need to avoid? What else is the room used for? 

What type of operation do you prefer? Roundy-Roundy to watch the trains through scenery? Industrial switching in the depth of down town? Simulating big pushers shoving trains over the top of a mountain? 

In my opinion, I don't care for the Indiana and Aurora layout. If you include the "optional" staging, your staging turns into a real mess. Unless you plan on using some form of "automatic" staging control to bring trains on and off the main track, the staging is just not practical to use both. If you include only the sidings that face up, you have room for two trains ready to go. That's not so bad for a small layout.

The minimum radius of 24" doesn't apply to the whole plan. If you come off the main track, and go through the curved switch on the bottom of the plan and stay closest to the operations pit, you're at less then 24" radius. 24" radius would maintain four of the boxes between centerlines of the plan. That track is down around 18" radius again. Even the main track in that area is less then 24" radius. There are other curves on the plan that are less than the 24" radius.

 I tried to make a detailed plan using WinRail track planning software with Atlas code 83 track and I did not succeed coming up with something looking clos to the plan in MR, given the size they mentioned in there - the actual space requirement seems to be much bigger than stated.

 It is a good plan, though!

tgindy

You can obtain more bi-directional traffic control on the Indiana & Aurora RR trackplan by adding 2 pairs of turnouts between the "two wrap-around mainlines":

One pair are left-to-left turnouts, and the other pair are right-to-right turnouts. A caution would be where to place each turnout pair, as this in reality does adds an "s-curve" factor, which all turnouts in essence are to any layout.

The suggestion would be to use #6 turnouts if you can do so while #4 turnouts will also work but give your turnouts slightly sharper curves.  Look closer at the trackplan, and you'll see the layout tries to use #6 & #8 turnouts.

Sir Madog

 I tried to make a detailed plan using WinRail track planning software with Atlas code 83 track and I did not succeed coming up with something looking clos to the plan in MR, given the size they mentioned in there - the actual space requirement seems to be much bigger than stated.

 It is a good plan, though!

 

kf4mat

Sir Madog

 I tried to make a detailed plan using WinRail track planning software with Atlas code 83 track and I did not succeed coming up with something looking clos to the plan in MR, given the size they mentioned in there - the actual space requirement seems to be much bigger than stated.

 It is a good plan, though!

 

I'm actually not a big fan of the track plan data base because if you are a newbie like myself it doesn't give you any details other than a pictorial overview of the track plan. It would be nice if it had a break down of the needed track if one wanted to recreate the plan. Seems to me I remember this issue of MR, now if I can only find the issue again. Tom

That's the sad part, this is all you get. In some ways the plan I like is better (Black River Junction), in the data base it comes with an overhead view. But it still doesn't tell me much, which is kind of stinky considering it was a small layout MR actually built. I've ran into this problem with 2 or 3 other track plans that I liked, then asked around on the forum about them, and was basically told I had to print out a copy or two and figure it all out myself. It's still driving me nuts. I'm starting to very much despise figuring out my own track plan and yet that's more or less what I have too do. My latest idea was using the plan from the "Whasup Dock" layout that was in MR a few months back. Been working on that one for about 2 weeks now and I'm not much further than looking and re-reading the article. The Black River idea is easily done, it was made with Kato Unitrak and Kato sells a special track kit that IS the Black River Junction track plan, but it's almost 900 bucks. And I'm tring to stick with a shelf so I can keep the spare room open for other things, like say a roomate to share expenses with. Like I said, so far it's not working out. And because it's not working out it's making me less anxious to work on it and that's making everything take even longer to do.

It's almost amazing how there are so many published books, website, web pages, even articles and yet some of the best advice I've recieved so far is, don't go by a published track plan. Chances are it won't work the way it says. I learned that with Atlas plans, I guess you got to learn it with this plan. Now I just need to go home and check that issue, for some reason I don't remember the layout.

I just looked at it in the track plan data base and it's exactly what I thought it was. I don't remember specifically the article's tittle, but it was something to the effect of "3 track plans for a sheet of plywood". It had 3 such track plans, the one the post is about, another HO scale that was made of a smallish table top with a wedge shaped leg added on, and a U-shaped N scale layout. At one point I was planning on making the n scale, I think that was the first one I was warned about following a published plan. Pen my name on the non-likers list, I don't like the "donut" type layout configuration at all.

If you do have back issues look at the next months (Sept. 08) issue in the reader responses. A reader sent MR his idea's for a few more configurations. There was 3, non of them looked like they made much sense, and ALL of them seemed to be extremely confusing to figure out track. All portions were narrow so with out using minimal curves (if even) it would N scale or bust. I will try to remember to get some pics of it to post tomorrow.

Tom,

In the Feb 2007 MR issue, they give you a track material list with diagram of the different track sections. 

As far as benchwork several people have posted pictures of there ideas and build - Mr beasley, a St louis Club - (Gateway) shows how they built a museum layout with a full pictorial of  the benchwork with a foam base.

Hopes this helps

Gordon

gonezuki

Tom,

 

In the Feb 2007 MR issue, they give you a track material list with diagram of the different track sections. 

As far as benchwork several people have posted pictures of there ideas and build - Mr beasley, a St louis Club - (Gateway) shows how they built a museum layout with a full pictorial of  the benchwork with a foam base.

Hopes this helps

 

Gordon

kf4mat

Would one replace something on the original track plan to do this or is this in addition to the published track plan?

The one turnout pair (if that all you used), or the two turnout pairs (left-to-left & right-to-right), would be in addition to what is already on the published trackplan.

An easy way to visualize it would be as if you were using sectional track.  For example:  The straight part of a turnout in essence would replace one straight piece of sectional track.

If possible, it would be good to show the proposed layout space/ area. Show doors and windows, traffic areas through the space or any other givens that would limit the overall layout size.

Your preference in type of operations, scale, local, time period etc all are additioal factors to consider during these planning stages.

There maybe so many other options available to you that you haven't considered yet.

This forum is chock full of competent modelers and layout designers that are willing to help.

bogp40

If possible, it would be good to show the proposed layout space/ area. Show doors and windows, traffic areas through the space or any other givens that would limit the overall layout size.

Your preference in type of operations, scale, local, time period etc all are additioal factors to consider during these planning stages.

There maybe so many other options available to you that you haven't considered yet.

This forum is chock full of competent modelers and layout designers that are willing to help.

I will see if I can figure out a way to get a shot posted of the proposed space tomorrow. I need to set up a photobucket account and also see if I can get MS paint or something to work and draw up a room shot.

To be honest with you I don't really know how to answer the type of operations question. I guess I am looking to get a combination of both mainline and switching. I know I don't want a going round and round and round with no need to do anything other than set the speed layout.

As to locale, East coast. I grew up in Southern Ohio watching the Chesapeake and Ohio running through the middle of town so I have always been partial to seeing Chessie the cat on the caboose. Now that I live in Fredericksburg Virginia, I still have CSX, plus I've just discovered the old Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac and I really  like their two tone gray scheme.

Of the several books and magazines I have collected over the years I like the design of the bench work in Jeff Wilson's Building a Ready-To-Run Model Railroad, too bad I find the track plan to be a real snooze. I think the wife is picturing a 4x8 as she said yeah you'll have to get a sheet of plywood. While I'm not one of those who despise the 4x8 I think I can come up with somethng a bit more creative if you know what I mean. Though I will say that I find the layout in the August 1993 MR for the National Train Show a neat concept. The Valley Forge Central had a tappered upper level that went from 30" down to 24" and sat approx 4" above the main line loop and a short line on the upper level connected to the lower main line.

Oky off to bed getting too late for me.

Tom

Are both doors used on a regular basis?   What is the swing on them?

bogp40

Are both doors used on a regular basis?   What is the swing on them?

kf4mat

bogp40

Are both doors used on a regular basis?   What is the swing on them?

Well yes and no, one entrance comes from the kitchen, the other from the front hallway. There is no swing radius as there is no actual door. They are just entrances into what would be considered the dinning room, which we don't use as such. Tom

So are you saying that people will _not_ be walking through the room from the kitchen to the front hallway or the other way around? Ie that you can, if need be, block one of the door openings more or less permantly and have a duckunder or lift-out in front of the other ?

 How about the window - do you need to preserve access to that ?

 As for what to model, you wrote 

kf4mat

To be honest with you I don't really know how to answer the type of operations question. I guess I am looking to get a combination of both mainline and switching. I know I don't want a going round and round and round with no need to do anything other than set the speed layout.

As to locale, East coast. I grew up in Southern Ohio watching the Chesapeake and Ohio running through the middle of town so I have always been partial to seeing Chessie the cat on the caboose. Now that I live in Fredericksburg Virginia, I still have CSX, plus I've just discovered the old Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac and I really  like their two tone gray scheme.

 Here are some questions I asked another poster to make him think about various options - you may already have considered these things, but what the heck:

1) Why do I want to build a model railroad ?

 A surprisingly large number of people fail to consider why they want a layout, or just go "because it is cool, duh!" and leave it at that. Don't skip this step.

No one but you can define why you want  a layout and what you expect/hope to get from your layout.  

Think about what you hope to get from your layout, and write it down. 

 For three reasons:

  a) there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to how to design two layouts for two widely different purposes.

 A layout designed to support you playing dispatcher at a CTC will often be quite different from a layout built mainly to give you a place to show off and take pictures of your detailed model trains, or a layout which can run in continuous display with various animated effects to entertain young grandchildren, or a layout built to allow you to do a lot of yard switching,

  Some people like to build, and tear down their layout and start over again pretty much right away after they finish building their railroad. Some people feel that the building part is a necessary evil they have to go through to get to the fun part of running trains, and want to keep it as simple as possible.

b) if you can't explain to yourself why you want a layout, it may not be the smartest thing to commit to spending quite a bit of money and quite a bit of time on building a layout until you have figured out why you want a layout, and

c) Once in a while when you are working on your model railroad you can do a reality check - are you getting what you wanted from what you are doing? If not, it is probably a good time to change either your goal or your approach :-)

2) What would I like to model ?

 Two subphases:

  a) Identify a theme, era and location that inspires you

  b) Find scenes that inspire you 

 Different people like different things. Tastes are different. No one but you can define what you want on your layout.

 But if you start out with era, location and theme, you are well on your way.

 An 1890s narrow gauge logging line in the west is pretty different in character compared to switching in Brooklyn in 1942, which is pretty different to having Budd RDCs carrying passengers to a remote settlement in the arctic north of Canada, which is pretty different from a helper base in West Virginia in the 1950s, which is pretty different from a modern 110 car coal unit trains departing from the Powder River basin in a steady stream of traffic, which is pretty different from a Harry Potter layout, which is pretty different from a Thomas The Tank train layout and so on and so forth.

 Tony Koester came up with a smart layout design concept in an early issue of Model Railroad Planning (an annual from the same people who publish Model Railroader Magazine): the Layout Design Element (LDE).

 An LDE is a small model railroad scene that is based on modelling a smallish part of a real railroad somewhere and sometime. Inspired e.g. by a photo that grabbed your attention or a place you have lived, or visited or read about or whatever.

 By breaking layout design into first designing a small number of scenes you want to model, and then afterwards figuring out how to string your scenes together in the space you have available, the design job gets less overwhelming.

 By "small" I mean something on the order of 3 or fewer LDEs for a H0 scale bedroom sized (10x12 foot) layout, and typically fewer than 10 LDEs for a H0 scale basement size layout, even though you obviously can squeeze in more scenes by making each scene smaller, running shorter trains, having more viewblocks that prevent visual interference between scenes etc.

 To find LDE candidates, you look at pictures - both pictures of your prototype railroad/area/era, and pictures of other layouts that inspire you.

  If you have a location and a theme in mind, it will be easier to figure out what kind of LDEs to look for and where to look.

 Some more on theme and selecting some scenes you would want to include on your layout:

 Some things to think about:
    Location(s):
     - Urban, small town or rural area?
     - Farming communities or industries ?
     - Mountains/Hills? Forests? Riverfront ?
     - mainline or branch line ?
     - RR junction, "on the line" or "end of line" ? 

    Traffic/Operations:
    - Express streamlined "named" passenger trains stopping at the Union Station ?
    - Long through freight trains passing through, possibly dropping off blocks for a local switcher ?
    - Local switching - one car at a time for various small local dealers ?
    - Big local industries needing lots of in plant switching ?
    - Lucius Beebe's "Mixed Train Daily" serving sleeping branch line ?

 Have you had a quick google for sources about your favorite railroad to see if you can spot interesting themes or locations ?

3) How do I fit what I want into the space I have ?

 This is where advice from more experienced layout designers can help you see solutions you maybe hasn't thought of yourself. There are quite a few tricks and tips on fitting in layouts in rooms in various ways.

 But the time to worry about the how to model (and to make the decisions on what comprimizes you need to make to make things fit the space) is after finding out why you want a layout and what you want to model.

 Think a bit about the why and what, write it down and go through it a few more times on your own.

 For some more questions you might want to ask yourself about the why and what, have a look at these web pages which contain more questions you might want to ask yourself in order to narrow down some more what you want:

Byron Henderson's checklist for potensial customers: http://home.earthlink.net/~mrsvc/id13.html

Layout Design SIG primer: http://macrodyn.com/ldsig/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Primer

 Just a handful of background stuff - and for all I know, you have already thought about these things.

 Smile,
 Stein

Hey Stein, have you written a book yet??  Other then your online guide.

kf4mat

in order for me to properly reply I'm going to have to print that off and really give it some thought. I could probably throw something out here but you put a lot of time into that response and it deserves a proper answer.

 I like the way you think - seems like you, like me, and perhaps unlike some of our younger posters, doesn't belong to the "twitter generation"

 "Twitter generation" ? People who post a steady stream of poorly thought out, poorly formulated and poorly spelled posts that they have spent very little time on formulating, and which conveys very little useful information to people reading the post.

 By all means - take some time and ponder your givens (things that cannot be changed) and your druthers (what you want/desire, some of which you might have to comprimize on).

 But don't feel that you *have* to do things this way - there are as many ways of doing planning as there are people doing this, and most of those ways work - it will perhaps take an extra loop or two of "rethink - redo" if you get started on the wrong foot, but you can usually get to your goal by quite a few different routes.

 And above all - have fun - we all are doing this because we think it is fun. If it gets to be work and not fun, try some other approach.

 Smile,
 Stein