http://www.dimensionprinting.com/
This would be a relatively low cost for someone to get into model railroad product manufacturing - this unit plus a decent PC with Solid Works would be all you'd need.
Disclaimer: I have no business interest in this product. I have seen demos of other equipment in the companies line, they are impressive.
These will be the best thing, and the worst thing to happen to model railroading.
Tim
well there's no way i can come up with $15k to buy one so i'm taking up a collection
for anyone who sends me $100 i will 3D print them the item of their choice after i've collected the entire $15k
just kidding ! very interesting device .
ernie
FastTracks These will be the best thing, and the worst thing to happen to model railroading. Tim
Actually, such machines probably will never play any significant roll in individual model railroading. Even were the cost of the machine to be brought down to be within the range of more well off hobbyists, you still need a very high quality master, or very sophisticated CAD file, to work from just to create a shell. You'll likely be paying the same price for such commercially created files as for the hardcopy products you are buying today. Likewise, the machines aren't likely to be capable to producing the necessary metal frames for locos in the same fashion, nor in the multi-types of metals needed for motors, etc. So a lot of the advantages go out the window right there.
Another thread I've seen had a segment by Jay Leno, TV personality and car collector, getting a vintage car part fabricated by an even more expensive version of this machine. What he actually ended up with was a plastic part he then had to take to a machinist, or foundary, to act as a master for producing a metal casting. Cetainly a boon for the classic car collector, or similar interest, guys who simply can not obtain some long OOP antique part. But for the every day model railroader? Considering the expense involved and the associated difficulties...I think not. More like just pie in the sky (anyone else old enough to recall the Popular Science and Popular Mechanics articles of the 50's?).
CNJ831
You will also need to purchase a software package to generate the 3D model to print from. Our Solidworks cost us about $4000-$4500 per seat. You will also need a bit more computer than most people have in their homes. Our drafting computers are dual core processors with 1 gig ram and, I think, at least half that on the video cards. Once you get all of that then you can look into the training packages for the software to learn how to create the 3D files.
CNJ sez:
Didn't they say stuff like this about the automobile, commercial aviation, personal computers, etc?
IIRC, a flight on a Pan Am Clipper cost about $14-1500 in 1940 dollars way back when. A top of the line TRS-80 computer with 256K memory and a 1.44 meg floppy was going for about $4,995 or so back in the the early 80's. Shoot, I remember the Sept, 1977 (IIRC) MR article on the possibility of using computers in model railroading. Seemed pretty far fetched at the time what with the primitive state of the art then.
Some things just aren't worth it and some are. The ability to manufacture stuff at home at a reasonable price is one of those things that is worth it. Did you know there's a whole hobby devoted to CNC machining out there? There are even do-it-yourself CNC machines and videos to show you how to construct one.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Easy-to-Build-Desk-Top-3-Axis-CNC-Milling-Machine/
You don't even have to wait for the movie to come out. http://www.instructables.com/id/SOEL9J8F5GE3DPE/
Here's a demo of a homebuilt in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3CwG3cGGnc&feature=related
That's some slick stuff.
Andre
andrechapelon CNJ sez:Another thread I've seen had a segment by Jay Leno, TV personality and car collector, getting a vintage car part fabricated by an even more expensive version of this machine. What he actually ended up with was a plastic part he then had to take to a machinist, or foundary, to act as a master for producing a metal casting. Cetainly a boon for the classic car collector, or similar interest, guys who simply can not obtain some long OOP antique part. But for the every day model railroader? Considering the expense involved and the associated difficulties...I think not. More like just pie in the sky (anyone else old enough to recall the Popular Science and Popular Mechanics articles of the 50's?). CNJ831 Didn't they say stuff like this about the automobile, commercial aviation, personal computers, etc? IIRC, a flight on a Pan Am Clipper cost about $14-1500 in 1940 dollars way back when. A top of the line TRS-80 computer with 256K memory and a 1.44 meg floppy was going for about $4,995 or so back in the the early 80's. Shoot, I remember the Sept, 1977 (IIRC) MR article on the possibility of using computers in model railroading. Seemed pretty far fetched at the time what with the primitive state of the art then. Some things just aren't worth it and some are. The ability to manufacture stuff at home at a reasonable price is one of those things that is worth it. Did you know there's a whole hobby devoted to CNC machining out there? There are even do-it-yourself CNC machines and videos to show you how to construct one. Andre
In the hands of skilled professionals, lots of high tech devices work well but that doesn't often translate to their application in the public sector. As I alluded to with my Popular Science/Popular Mechanics reference, in the 1950's they predicted a flying car in every driveway, robotic domestics, totally automated kitchens and endless other stuff by 1975. None of it came to pass in home application and probably won't for another century, if even then.
Likewise, buying a super sophisticated machine for tens of thousands of dollars, taking a couple of years of college courses to learn how to make it function correctly and do what you really want it to, simply to create some $15 box cars, is the height of absudity. This is not Star Trek, where you can simply ask,"Computer, make me a domestic ham and imported Swiss cheese sandwich on rye" and instantly it pops out of a slot. It would require high specialized circumstances (read - being a hobby manufacturer) for this machine to be of any real use in the hobby. For the general hobbyist purchasing such a machine would be at a cost equal to having some pro come in a build an entire world class layout for you. What's the possible point? Will some few guys eventually own one? Probably. But can you honestly imagine one of these 3-D printers in the hands of the typical hobbyist you meet on this forum?
Simply put, machines such as this, just like the specialized robots that did come to pass in industry, are appropriate only for various kinds of highly technical scientific and industrial use. They are not and never will become simply toys for the masses.
CNJ831 Simply put, machines such as this, just like the specialized robots that did come to pass in industry, are appropriate only for various kinds of highly technical scientic and industrial use. They are not and never will become simply toys for the masses. CNJ831
Simply put, machines such as this, just like the specialized robots that did come to pass in industry, are appropriate only for various kinds of highly technical scientic and industrial use. They are not and never will become simply toys for the masses.
i recall that in the 70s, people as eminent as the CEO of Intel or IBM said things very similar to this--that they couldn't foresee anyone ever needing a computer in their home, or that 640kb of memory was enough for anybody. Laser printers used to cost thousands. Computers, even, cost thousands, and could barely do anything, and this was in my younger years--70s and 80s. Now, my tiny MSI Wind does much, much more than my 9 yr old Mac Laptop (both running OSX). What is expensive and requiring of lots of skill today, generally, if there's a common application that makes it worthwhile, will eventually be cheap and commonplace tomorrow. We don't know how long it would be, but I can imagine something like this being very popular with model-makers of all sorts (including Lego builders, who are already busy fabricating their own stuff). So, I'm not going to predict in either direction! ;-) I'll let the future do that for me. ;-)
Had the decimal point been four places to the left this turkey would still have been beyond my budget.
Actually these are enhanced plotters and designed to render rather large formatted plans for use by fabricators; I occasionally see similiar units--they could perhaps even be units manufactured by the same company--advertised in some of my metalworking magazines. I do suppose that were I engaged in some large volume manufacturing endeavor something like this would be of value; as it is there are graphics programs available which enable you to do 3D drawings on the PC for printing on conventional printers. Actually some of the graphics programs enable you to render an explodable diagram for print.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Likewise, buying a super sophisticated machine for tens of thousands of dollars, taking a couple of years of college courses to to learn how to make it function correctly and do what you really want it to, simply to create some $15 box cars, is the height of absudity. This is not Star Trek, where you can simply ask,"Computer, make me a domestic ham and imported Swiss cheese sandwich on rye" and instantly it pops out of a slot. It would require high specialized circumstances (read - being a hobby manufacturer) for this machine to be of any real use in the hobby. For the general hobbyist purchasing such a machine would be at a cost equal to having some pro come in a build an entire world class layout for you. What's the possible point? Will some few guys eventually own one? Probably. But can you honestly imagine one of these 3-D printers in the hands of the typical hobbyist you meet on this forum?
Too bad Missing The Point is not an Olympic event.
The point was not that such stuff is available now but that things get simplified, easier and cheaper to use over time. Like I said, you'd pay about $5k for a computer with 256K RAM and a 1.44 Meg floppy a quarter of a century ago. How long's the digital camera been out and how rapidly have prices fallen? When I was a kid, you listened to music either on a radio or phonograph. Phonographs are museum pieces. So are tape recorders (not to mention the wire recorder). VCR's were big about 20 years ago. Now they're obsolete. Who uses film cameras anymore?
And apparently, someone is working (at least on a very small scale) on a Star Trek style transporter. IIRC, transporter technology was supposedly the basis of the replicator. http://tinyurl.com/aee9t8
It wouldn't surprise me if these 3D printers are being used by the manufacturers for rapid prototyping of parts that go into current models.
A lot of things that were predicted didn't come to pass. So what? A lot of things did come to pass that weren't even thought of back then.
nfmisso http://www.dimensionprinting.com/ This would be a relatively low cost for someone to get into model railroad product manufacturing - this unit plus a decent PC with Solid Works would be all you'd need. Disclaimer: I have no business interest in this product. I have seen demos of other equipment in the companies line, they are impressive.
I think this will revolutionize the production of anything that makes use of plastic or wood. And while it' still cheaper to injection mold anything out of plastic that may not be true in the long run. In addition those who want to replicate any kit or object would do well with something like this. But its going to be expensive and while the cost will go down appreciably you still the folks to create the software that will make thos run and that is going to be the tough part. Besides how many of you can afford to spend $15K just to get this machine and fork up additional $1ks to get the rest of what is needed to produce a copy of the Walther's turntable you've been wanting? No matter how you slice it, it's never going be as cheap to reproduce it as it would be to go to your local LHS or order it online direct from Walthers.
Irv
andrechapelon Too bad Missing The Point is not an Olympic event. The point was not that such stuff is available now but that things get simplified, easier and cheaper to use over time. And apparently, someone is working (at least on a very small scale) on a Star Trek style transporter. IIRC, transporter technology was supposedly the basis of the replicator. http://tinyurl.com/aee9t8 It wouldn't surprise me if these 3D printers are being used by the manufacturers for rapid prototyping of parts that go into current models. A lot of things that were predicted didn't come to pass. So what? A lot of things did come to pass that weren't even thought of back then. Andre
The point was not that such stuff is available now but that things get simplified, easier and cheaper to use over time.
Yes, it is indeed unfortunate that that Missing The Point isn't an Olyimpic event...and Naivete as well.
As a creator of prototypes, such 3-D Printer machines are great. As a device to commercially mass producing items by a manufacturer, they are probably much less suitable than the current injection molding process and for individual use, just nonsense. If you've seen how long the 3-D process takes, you'll appreciate that it doesn't seem to demonstrate any distinct advantages over current standard manufacturing practices...it's basically applicable to prototyping.
Regarding some of the other great advancements in technology, stop and consider that a large portion of VHS and DVD players spend their entire service lives with the clock display flashing "12:00" because the owner/operator never figures out how to program them otherwise. Considering that situation, I'd hate to see the results of placing a 3-D printer the the hands of most common folks.
And as to that Star Trek Transporter, do you have an understanding of what actually took place that was announced as a form of teleportation? The event involved an unusual state induced in photons. It did not involve any actual matter, so please don't make it sound as if it was the advent of a Star Trek transporter. You'll find that these sorts of distorted, over-hyped, press releases appear almost weekly from NASA, et. al, in popular science publications and websites...only to be dropped, quietly retracted, or highly modified more in line with the truth, subsequently. The general public, I'm afraid, is too easily misled these days.
Weeeeeeeeeeeelllll... I agree wholeheartedly that it's unlikely that many, even most modelers would be able to produce something worthwhile in a CAD program - I "dabble" with CAD and 3d work, and it's something that requires a certain kind of thought process to be able to visualize how to build up the elements.
I think that the boon with this will be for the limited run (and limited appeal) models. If we say a decent freight car would be a couple of days work for a CAD guy who has the relevant information available, you might be talking... say... $800 in development costs for the CAD model, the CAD model can then be sold online to modeler who wants said freight car, he loads the model up in his printer software, and POP, out of his printer comes his car. No-one's got inventory, there's instant gratification, everyone's a winner. The modeler at the end doesn't have to understand anything about how the model was created - it would be the same for him as printing a photo is for you today.
A further advantage of this would be that it would be possible to do the CAD work once and make the model for whatever scales you desired.
The difference with this and all of the other wild technology you mention is that THIS is being done NOW. There are modelers producing parts this way TODAY, it's just out of the price range for most people at the moment.
The first black & white laser printer I saw demonstrated cost $20K. I have a color laser printer now that I got a year or so ago for $250. When the price comes down, I'll bite on this 3D printer. And yes, I could do the CAD, which by the time it comes down that far in price will likely be along the lines of Google Sketch-up--or easier. Shouldn't be too hard for someone who started with T-square and slide rule, and a blueline printer.
Making pictures of pixels is much easier than making pictures with emulsions. The punchcard computing programs were much harder to make work than those on a tape, etc. In time, who knows? Maybe the plastic material will be strengthened, made conductive, or who knows?
Check out Finescale modeler magazines Nov. 2007 issue titled making model parts online. If you can do the 3D drafting they will make the parts. I think for the 1/72 aircraft air compressor, the guy paid $25 for his parts. BILL
reklein Check out Finescale modeler magazines Nov. 2007 issue titled making model parts online. If you can do the 3D drafting they will make the parts. I think for the 1/72 aircraft air compressor, the guy paid $25 for his parts. BILL
I remember readinb that. But I had different thought.
Let's say someone wants to cast a part for a kit or even an entire kit. Right now you need a master to create a rubber mold in which to pour the material you want to caste into something else. Right now to make that master you have to either find an existing part or scratch build one. However by using a 3D printer you can create the master relatively quickly without struggling. Combine that with RTV rubber and you can quickly create the mold and even make several and cast as many copies as the molds are capable of producing. This has application in any kind of modelling but creating the 3D drawing is still going to be the tough part that most people just aren't capable of doing.
corsair7 However by using a 3D printer you can create the master relatively quickly without struggling. Combine that with RTV rubber and you can quickly create the mold and even make several and cast as many copies as the molds are capable of producing. This has application in any kind of modelling but creating the 3D drawing is still going to be the tough part that most people just aren't capable of doing.
However by using a 3D printer you can create the master relatively quickly without struggling. Combine that with RTV rubber and you can quickly create the mold and even make several and cast as many copies as the molds are capable of producing. This has application in any kind of modelling but creating the 3D drawing is still going to be the tough part that most people just aren't capable of doing.
Already being done, by several different model manufacturers, including: http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com/sscaleindex.html
Although 3-D printing and SLA are similar in output they are different in the way they work. Here is a video of an SLA machine at work. There are also several vids of 3-D printers on youtube as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwQ5HA8sE-k
On a related note, what about one of the new "desktop" laser cutters. The Epilog Zing goes for around $8000, but with accessories would probably top out at $10,000. No worse than buying a Harley that sits in the garage all winter.
http://www.epiloglaser.com/sc_model.htm
Looks like this would be right up our alley.