What is the history of Lionel HO?

There are apparently two "Greenburg's Guides" on this very subject.  Volume 1 covers the 50's and 60's, while volume 2 covers the 1970's.  You would probably have to go to Ebay to find the older version.

As I recall Lionel got into and out of HO at least twice.  The only thing that was not a "Me Too" product was the E33 electric that up until the Bachman version came out was getting some serious prices on E Bay.  The first time they got out they tried to market slot cars and then went back to trains when that craze died.  There isn't much if anything that is up to todays standards or quality.

I think they did the HO from about 1956-62, then did HO again in the mid-seventies (their "Freedom Train" was pretty good) and then of course just earlier this decade. Plus they did OO trains before WW2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcZh_uSvgMI

http://www.traincollectors.org/

BTW in searching I found out there's an Australian scientist whose name is Lionel Ho.

http://hoseeker.net/lionelhoinformation.html

This website shows all of the Lionel HO catalogs.

wjstix

I think they did the HO from about 1956-62, then did HO again in the mid-seventies (their "Freedom Train" was pretty good) and then of course just earlier this decade. Plus they did OO trains before WW2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcZh_uSvgMI

http://www.traincollectors.org/

BTW in searching I found out there's an Australian scientist whose name is Lionel Ho.

 

I had a few Lionel HO items from their first go-around with the scale circa 1960, all long since gone.  Their version of the Athearn Hustler was visually just about identical BUT it came with a decent motor and it was gear driven, not the rubber band drive of the Athearn original.  It might even have had a headlight.   You could actually do slow speed industrial switching with it.

A hopper car of a paint scheme I can no longer recall (Alaska Railroad?) had nicely sprung metal trucks with an interesting bolster system.  It rolled very well although not as well as cars with Lindberg trucks.  It was not a badly detailed car as I remember it.  

Somewhere I have an HO scale switchman's shanty with a switchman who pops out when a train is nearby -- an HO version of one of their O scale action accessories.  It was a Christmas gift from some cousins.  The building is not bad looking and I have always had vague thoughts of actually installing the thing somewhere on the layout just to get a laugh.  By "vague thoughts" I mean I have not done it and almost certainly never will.   My modeling gets enough laughs as it is.

Dave Nelson

Lots of Lionel HO catalogs, and their contents, shown here: http://www.hoseeker.org/lionelhoinformation.html

My first HO train set was a Lionel! The roadname for the loco (a GP9) and the caboose was "American Flyer" with a red, white and blue scheme. And yes it was HO, and not S scale. I believe it was sold through Sears, since there was a Sears boxcar in the set. I also remember a C&O boxcar in there and a white flatcar. This was sometime in the 1970s. 

Metro Red Line

My first HO train set was a Lionel! The roadname for the loco (a GP9) and the caboose was "American Flyer" with a red, white and blue scheme. And yes it was HO, and not S scale. I believe it was sold through Sears, since there was a Sears boxcar in the set. I also remember a C&O boxcar in there and a white flatcar. This was sometime in the 1970s. 

nw2

Made that 3 times because in the 90s (?)they made a ho scale turbine that IIRC either didnt sell well or made too many that were heavily discounted atcsome point. But were fetching big ebay prices after a while. I believe these were the tooling that Athearn brought for their turbine and even the U50 might of been a project in the works for Lionel before the got out of HO again

Shortly after Lionel went to HO it went nuclear!  They made a ton of money at first, but ultimately lost money and left the nuclear biz in the early 60's.

Read all about it at.

http://www.orau.org/ptp/pdf/HP%20News%20Lionel%20story.pdf

The famous Lionel "L" logo in a circle was on some of their instruments like the 455 laboratroy counter seen in the article.  Even though they made thousands of Civil defense cdv700 counters, not a lot survived or made it to the surplus market and Lionel counters are considered collectors items.

Their HO trains were due to the enormous leap in HO's popularity after WWII and a fall off in the O scale line. in the 50's.  Ultimately, they would drop the HO as O came back in due to Baby boomers wanting to reclaim a bit of their youth.

Made it clickable:

http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/athearnlocomotives/index.html

DavidH66

http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/ this site has a lot of info on not only Lionel HO, but various other companies during the 50-80s

You did realize that site is where I got the Lionel ad I linked to in my post from last Friday (3 or so posts above this)?
Guess in future posts I'll have to link to the home page of interesting sites in addition to the page in question.

stebbycentral

 

 

Metro Red Line

My first HO train set was a Lionel! The roadname for the loco (a GP9) and the caboose was "American Flyer" with a red, white and blue scheme. And yes it was HO, and not S scale. I believe it was sold through Sears, since there was a Sears boxcar in the set. I also remember a C&O boxcar in there and a white flatcar. This was sometime in the 1970s. 

 

 

 

 

Metro, you are definitely trying to confuse us!  Could this have perhaps been a little earlier, say the 1960's?  Because American Flyer also made their own line of HO scale trains, though actually they were manufactured for Flyer by Varney.  And Sears was a Flyer trains distributor.  But from your descrition of the train, I'm thinking it was one of those garish Tyco sets.  I'm simply not sure why Lionel would, in those days, produce a train named the "American Flyer".  These days of course Lionel owns the Flyer brand.

 

 

No, I swear!

In fact, I did a little Google-digging around and discovered someone on eBay was selling a mint-condition (unopened) Lionel "American Flyer" HO scale train set. It turns out it was a promotional item sold at Sears, in conjunction with the U.S. Bicentennial in 1976. Also, Lionel bought out American Flyer in 1967. Here's the pic I got off of the eBay ad, and the loco and rolling stock match my recollection perfectly:

And besides, I didn't exist at any time during the 1960s :)

chutton01

 

nw2

Made that 3 times because in the 90s (?)they made a ho scale turbine that IIRC either didnt sell well or made too many that were heavily discounted atcsome point. But were fetching big ebay prices after a while. I believe these were the tooling that Athearn brought for their turbine and even the U50 might of been a project in the works for Lionel before the got out of HO again

 

 

Looks like it was 2004, according to the copyright date on the ad on this page: "The Veranda". They also apparently offered a HO scale 4-6-6-4 Challenger at the time.

 

Yup, that would be the right time. It's too bad, both engines got good reviews but weren't available for very long. For a time there, I think 4 companies were making RTR HO U.P. Challengers.

Metro Red Line

 No, I swear!

In fact, I did a little Google-digging around and discovered someone on eBay was selling a mint-condition (unopened) Lionel "American Flyer" HO scale train set. It turns out it was a promotional item sold at Sears, in conjunction with the U.S. Bicentennial in 1976. Also, Lionel bought out American Flyer in 1967. Here's the pic I got off of the eBay ad, and the loco and rolling stock match my recollection perfectly:

 

And besides, I didn't exist at any time during the 1960s :)

 

Well, consider my mind boggled!  Lionel produces an American Flyer branded train set in HO instead of S!  Makes no sense what so ever.

Why not use the American Flyer name in HO?  They were trying to use a well known brand name to sell their trains.

joe323

Why not use the American Flyer name in HO?  They were trying to use a well known brand name to sell their trains.

 

Plus it came out around 1976, the year of the U.S. Bicentennial, and HO was the most popular scale already. S scale was already fading in popularity by then. They wanted to cash in on the event as well by selling a red/white/blue train, especially since they didn't make any Amtrak models.

Joe,During the Bicentennial every manufacturer cashed in on the celebration by producing a Bicentennial locomotive or train set thus Lionel used the name "American Flyer" as a attention getting shout out for that Bicentennial set(note the red,white and blue box-catchy isn't it?) which had nothing to do with A.C. Gilbert's American Flyer line of S Scale trains.

Today Lionel may have been sued using AF's name on that train set.

BRAKIE

Today Lionel may have been sued using AF's name on that train set.

I believe by that time, MPC (the owner of Lionel in the '70s and '80s) had bought out American Flyer and owned the rights to the name and equipment.  By the '80s, MPC had resumed production of a limited amount of American Flyer.  To this day, Lionel owns the American Flyer name and production.

Fred W

stebbycentral

Well, consider my mind boggled!  Lionel produces an American Flyer branded train set in HO instead of S!  Makes no sense what so ever.

"American Flyer" was the Bicentenniel / USA themed road name, not the brand.

fwright

BRAKIE

Today Lionel may have been sued using AF's name on that train set.

 

 

 

I believe by that time, MPC (the owner of Lionel in the '70s and '80s) had bought out American Flyer and owned the rights to the name and equipment.  By the '80s, MPC had resumed production of a limited amount of American Flyer.  To this day, Lionel owns the American Flyer name and production.

Fred W

Lionel acquired American Flyer in 1967.

chutton01

 

 

 

nw2

Made that 3 times because in the 90s (?)they made a ho scale turbine that IIRC either didnt sell well or made too many that were heavily discounted atcsome point. But were fetching big ebay prices after a while. I believe these were the tooling that Athearn brought for their turbine and even the U50 might of been a project in the works for Lionel before the got out of HO again

 

 

Looks like it was 2004, according to the copyright date on the ad on this page: "The Veranda". They also apparently offered a HO scale 4-6-6-4 Challenger at the time.

 

 

Wow Batman, talk about resurection of an OLD thread, I am surprised that I missed this one before this.

I was thinking that it was 2003, but close regardless. The Early 2000's Production included Both Challengers and Veranda Turbines.

The Veranda Turbines were available in two schemes, Silver truck frames, and Grey truck frames, each with 2 road#'s available for a total of 4 variations in the Turbines.

The Challengers were available in Six schemes:

Black, Coal fired, no Smoke Lifters

Black, Oil Fired, With Smoke Lifters

Two Tone Grey/Yellow Letters and Stripes, Oil Fired, With Smoke Lifters

and MY Favorite.

Two Tone Grey/Silver Letters and Stripes, Oil Fired, with Smoke Lifters

Also Offered were:

Rio Grande, Black, Coal Fired, No Smoke Lifters.

Clinchfield, Black, Coal Fired, Single Stack, No Smoke Lifters.

Each of the Six schemes was available in two Road#'s as well, for a total of 12 variations available.

Both models came with full DCC, and Sound, and were metal bodied, I have at least one of each version, with the possible exception of the Turbines, I think that somehow, I missed one Road #, and ended up with one duplicate Road #.

In MY experience, they were/are very good running locomotives, and the detailing compares with any other mass produced non-brass model made. When I was active at the Club, Columbia Gorge Model Railroad Club(CGL reporting marks) in Portland, OR, they were very Popular, especially my #3980 TTG/S with a12 car train of Athearn Heavyweight Passenger cars, the TTG/S paint schemes matched VERY WELL, and though the Athearn cars were not lighted, or have detailed interiors, on a Club layout, in HO, that is not very noticeable, and during show days, that train got a lot of comments.

Any of you who have seen the Disney STYLE kids movie "Train Master" have seen the Columbia Gorge Club Layout, and My TTG/S Challenger and Athearn HVY WT train, it got a brief appearance in the movie.

If the U50 model was in the pipeline at Lionel, it is news to ME, but it would be plausible, as the other two models were of Union Pacific origin, so the U50, may have been a future project that I was unaware of, it would likely have sold very well, as the other Lionel locomotives were well made and good runners, and the U50, to that point was only available in Brass to my knowledge.

It would have been interesting to see, what the Future of Lionel HO held, the models were well made, and great looking, but the lawsuit by MTH ended the Lionel HO era so all we can do is specualate, about what "Might Have Been".

The early 2000's Lionel HO production, was a very different animal than Lionel's earlier forays into HO, these models were specifically produced for Lionel, not rebadged production for other companies. Lionel was SERIOUS about not only Quality, but Scale Accuracy as well, they even had seperate boiler castings for the Single stacked Clinchfield models, which were likely the version in least demand.

As my modeling interests have changed, I have many versions still New/unopened boxes that may find new homes, but I will keep some as display pieces, because of how well they were done, and my main interest is still in Union Pacific Transition era, just in a larger scale now.

Just make No Mistake about it, the early 2000's Lionel HO production, were NOT your GrandPa's Lionel, by ANY stretch of the Imagination, and they compared Favorably with any non-brass produced during their time.

Doug

stebbycentral

 

 

Metro Red Line

 No, I swear!

In fact, I did a little Google-digging around and discovered someone on eBay was selling a mint-condition (unopened) Lionel "American Flyer" HO scale train set. It turns out it was a promotional item sold at Sears, in conjunction with the U.S. Bicentennial in 1976. Also, Lionel bought out American Flyer in 1967. Here's the pic I got off of the eBay ad, and the loco and rolling stock match my recollection perfectly:

 

And besides, I didn't exist at any time during the 1960s :)

 

 

 

 

Well, consider my mind boggled!  Lionel produces an American Flyer branded train set in HO instead of S!  Makes no sense what so ever.

 

 Boggle it some more. I have some American Flyer HO from the 50's, when Flyer was still a going concern under AC Gilbert. 

                                        --Randy