Marx Tinplate Trains - A Guide by Collectors

probably the best information i can give anyone who wants to collect Marx tin is the old adage of  "Buyer Beware".  Marx 6in tin cars are likely one of the easiest to manipulate the rearranging of parts.  almost all frames and car bodies have the exact same 6-tab construction and many Marx pieces that never existed out of the factory can be constructed with the only tool needed being a rugged fingernail.  even the Greenberg text contains a number of these hybrids.

with Marx locomotives, the same practice is also seen.  almost all Marx motors follow the same form-fit even between clockwork and electric versions.

...gary

Trevor, Glad you started this thread!  My taste in Marx runs toward the windups and 6" tin.  I'll share some items from my limited collection in the future, but for now I would like to post a link for anybody that likes Marx 6" tin: 

http://www.toyandtrainguides.com/marxtin.htm

The site itself is an excellent reference for all things Marx, and the CD is a "must-have" if you are interested in 6" tin.

Just for fun, here is a well-worn example of the Marx Commodore Vanderbilt, a reversing clockwork version that was probably built sometime in the 1939-1941 time period (single dome body was introduced around '39, reversing mechanical motor was last sold in the CV in '41).  It has a #551 6" Coffin Tender:

Let's see some more Marx trains!

 - James

Gary- Are all those boxcars yours? I noticed that blue CN&W car has an off-centered door, which proves that almost nothing was wasted as long as it still served it's purpose.

James- I look forward to seeing what you have! 6 inch is my main interest, although I don't a single wind-up engine yet.

My camera isn't co-operating with me, so I'll have to wait to post pictures.

Trevor

tjl0824

Gary- Are all those boxcars yours? I noticed that blue CN&W car has an off-centered door, which proves that almost nothing was wasted as long as it still served it's purpose.

yes, i'm afraid that's what happens when you've been at it for a few decades.  since those portraits, i've actually added about 4 more.  yes, errors in the litho registration do happen, though that door was a rather extreme case.  typically most collectors regard litho registration errors as undesirable pieces, though.

with later multicolor boxcars, the colors remain constant (sort of) but a variety of car numbers (usually 16) were produced.

as you can see by this proof sheet showing 15 different NYC Pacemaker boxcars, Marx had very little QC regarding color formulas.  none of these cars has faded gray paint; the shades ranged from very light to moderately dark.

cheers...gary

This site has alot of good information, but you must pay to see all of it, I think it is a CD that you buy.

http://www.toyandtrainguides.com/marxtin.htm

I have a later Marx set from about 1950, the bigger 7" car Nickel Plate Road set, all the cars are well worn track is shot and no box, but it is the set my Grandfather bought for my dad when he was a kid....its priceless....and after I replaced a bad gear it still runs great!    I love Tin Plate, Great thread!

-Jason

rack776

This site has alot of good information, but you must pay to see all of it, I think it is a CD that you buy.

http://www.toyandtrainguides.com/marxtin.htm

Walt's Marxtin site is mostly filled with the unusual and rare Marx cars and sets; he has since produced the Definitive Guide CD which is a much more valuable aid to collecting 6" Marx tin (and i also think he has a Marx Plastic guide out now, too).  this CD lists & pictures most known Marx pieces also giving each car a common, scarce or rare rating.  it is well worth the money for information it contains.  last i looked the out of print Greenberg Marx Volume I, the only other popular reference for 6" tin, sells in the $100+ range and contains numerous known errors.

I'll second Gary's comments on Walt's CD; it has an amazing amount of information about Marx 6" tin and is worth every penny.  It basically functions like Walt's website, and allows the user to look up cars by type or number.  If you are interested in 6" tin, you will like the CD!

As I stated before, I like the windups - or Mechanicals in Marx lingo - and 6" tin.  I prefer items that are perhaps a bit rough; not only are they economical to buy, but it gives me the feeling that I have someone's treasured toy that gave them many hours of enjoyment.  A plus is that I can run them without any fear of damaging a pristine piece in a mishap.  With that in mind, let's look at a locomotive!

This is a Marx Mechanical #232, the Commodore Vanderbilt:

This green CV is an early pre-war locomotive.  Marx was a bit of a late-comer to model trains, taking over Joy Line and beginning production in 1934.  Although some reference books list Mechanical CV's as dating to 1934, the earliest period advertisement for a 232 that I have seen is 1935 (Montgomery Wards 1935 Catalog p. 18-19)... earlier advertisements still advertise Joy Line clockworks.  The first Marx trains used the old Joy Line coupler, so the first 232 had what is referred to as a swing-peg coupler that mated with the Joy Line couplers:

 The first CV had other distinctive features besides the swing-peg coupler.  The governor was located behind one of the front wheels - this was moved to inside the motor in '36.  Some have a cover over the bottom of the motor, but this feature was discontinued by the second year, also:

The windup motor featured a small grinding wheel with a flint that threw sparks out the stack, as well as a bell that dinged as the locomotive ran down the track.  The sparker was used for many years, up to the advent of plastic shell Marx locomotives, and the bell was retained to the end of Marx production.  A screw in key was used for the first few years of Marx production, as well as 10 spoke diecast drivers.  The first CV's were available in Black, Red, Green and Silver.  The early headlight bezel pointed up at an angle, then an angled bezel was used so it was level, and finally the body was recessed in 1936 so the original type of bezel would sit level.

There are a myriad of other details and variations in the mechanical CV's, but I think I've rambled on long enough for this post!

 - James

I have been collecting Marx tinplate trains for a few years.  I don't have a permanent layout so I only set them up at Christmas around the tree.

Here are videos with lots of Marx trains running under the tree from 2008

http://youtu.be/9ph4YNVsHLE

Christmas 2009

http://youtu.be/MkITpA7WZ8U

Christmas 2010

http://youtu.be/RQgr3AP-YlQ

Christmas 2011

http://youtu.be/i4ap40OKATE

I am a big fan of Marx windup trains so here are 2 videos of my MARX WINDUPS.

http://youtu.be/geJeI4_LwYc

http://youtu.be/ZgSmewtc9AA

For a couple of examples of Marx variety, here are a two different sets that have sentimental value to me...

First up is a 25224 set:

This electric set has a Marx 999 locomotive and 3/16" scale cars.  The Pennsylvania boxcar is not original to the set, it is a later addition.  This train was given to my Dad for Christmas in 1954.  That is the original box and instructions with the set.  It also came with a bridge, 2 remote control switches, operating semaphore and enough track for a loop with passing siding and uncoupler track.  The set and accessories would have orginally come packed inside a bigger cardboard box, but it did not survive Dad's childhood.

Next up is one of my sets from when I was a kid, a #2915 Meteor:

I believe I got this set in 1974.  It has a controller that is powered by a 6 volt lantern battery and connects to the track with a lockon just like the AC powered trains.  The cars are 4 wheel plastic, with fake trucks hiding the fact that there are just two axles per car.  I still have the box, although it is in poor condition.

More to come...

 - James

i'm not sure if i have a favorite Marx set, but this one has got to be in the top 5...

similar to this Montgomery Wards set (1938), but without the C&S reefer...

clockwork set #550

the clockwork CP #3000 (with correct sparkling motor) would have been a nice find in itself, but this set has two other slightly hidden treasures...

the (551) NYC rivet tender is fairly common unless it includes the Marx logo which was apparently dropped early on in its long production run.

and with their alternate play value, finding any Marx flat car w/ the original load is usually a bonus.  but of all the (562) auto flats, the sliding tab & slot coupler version is probably the rarest.  with the completeness and consistent condition of this set, there is no doubt in my mind this is original Marx, but as i mentioned previously, you can probably see how easy this piece might be to fake.

sliding couplers were used with clockwork locomotives to give the engine a gradually increased load as it took off.  leading a fixed coupler consist, a clockwork loco will tend to spin its wheels before gaining traction.

cheers...gary

Wow Gary, that set is a treasure!  Thanks for sharing the pictures.  The clockwork CP and the clockwork 666 are at the top of my wish list... 

- James

Here's a Marx set I bought two years ago. It's set 56844, and it is probably the highest end Marx set I've got. It's an 1829 smoking and chugging engine with quite a few nice plastic cars. It has a 100 watt transformer and I think it came with wide radius track.

I remember it was two years ago because this picture is of it running on the modular club layout at the antique tractor show (which is coming up in 2 weeks). I also remember that the smokestack has a reddish orange plastic piece in it that more than one of us were concerned with as it gives off a nice "something's burning"  glow from the headlight.

One of these days I'll get around to repairing or replacing the smoke unit on it.

J White

Here are a couple more variations of the windup Commodore Vanderbilt:

These CV's are the two oldest I have other than the green swing-peg I posted earlier.  The older is on the left; the one on the right slightly newer.  How can we tell?  Glad you asked!

Looking at the top, you can see there is a slight difference in the shape of the domes.  On the left, is the earlier, sharper version; on the right is the later, blunter version.  This happened sometime in the 1937-38 time frame, meaning that the engine on the left has to date around '36 or '37, the one on the right around '37-'38.  Note that both of these locos still have screw-in keys, but the one on the left is a reproduction key, the one on the right is original.

Here is a view of the underside... note that compared to the green swing-peg CV, the governor is now located in the motor instead of behind the wheel, we now have the Marx tab-and-slot coupler instead of the swing-peg for the older Joy-Line couplers, and there isn't any cover over the bottom of the mechanism.  The next change Marx made was the switch from the screw-in key to the easily removeable square key... but I'm getting ahead of myself.  More CV variations to come!

I'm enjoying seeing everyone's Marx trains... neat thread.

 - James

Wow, this thread took off quicker than I expected.

Since everyone is showing off sets, here's my favorite

I actually read about this set on Walt's Marxtin site a while ago, but I could never find one for sale. When I did, it was listed on Ebay with a non-descriptive title, and I won it (dirt cheap too). The trains and box are near mint, but the transformer is missing. This is my number one favorite set, and I don't think I'd ever sell it.

Just out of curiosity, is this you James?: http://www.youtube.com/user/NorthviewRailroader If it isn't, I must of found an exact copy of you.

Trevor

Trevor, you are right, I'm NorthviewRailroader on YouTube... I suppose there aren't very many people who are into Marx clockworks and 12" gauge live steam!    That is a nice set, I'm sure you will find the correct transformer for a reasonable price.  The green and cream is my favorite M10005 paint scheme, by the way.  I don't have any Marx clockwork diesels (yet), but I'm always on the lookout!

 - James

Good evening all,

I do not have much to contribute, but a Marx set got me into O-27.  It was one of the 7 inch sets that was made to counter Unique's line of similar cars.  It had the 994 NKP engine and tender, the Wabash high wall gondola, NYC box car, and NKP 7 inch caboose with hook couplers.  It used to run and probably needs some TLC to fire it up again.  I will tell more about it later.  Good thread.  I hope it continues and perhaps CTT will do some more Marx articles in the future.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

JamesP

... I suppose there aren't very many people who are into Marx clockworks and 12" gauge live steam! 

you're right, James, ...i'm only up to 7½" gauge!  :)

great CV information.  to supplement your photos, here is another look at the Marx wheel-mounted governor used early on, ...this one from an M10000.

early M10000 clockwork motor w/ wheel-mounted governor

i'm sure the subject of traditional Marx with electric motors operating on contemporary track (using guard rails through switches and crossovers) will come up before long, but these early clockwork drives also posed the same running problem.

cheers...gary

overlandflyer

JamesP:

... I suppose there aren't very many people who are into Marx clockworks and 12" gauge live steam! 

 

you're right, James, ...i'm only up to 7½" gauge!  :)

 Gary, if I am remembering right, aren't you are building a 7.5" gauge steamer?     I think that puts us firmly in the same camp!  Anyway, thanks for posting the M10000 motor pictures - it is much easier to see the housing for the wheel governor with the motor out of the body.  How about a picture of the entire "snake"?

For anyone that has never dealt with a wheel governed Marx clockwork, it is readily apparent why Marx quickly changed to the one inside the motor... the wheel governors don't work very good!  The locomotives tend to run too fast, flying off in the curves; this can be mitigated to an extent by coupling up a longer train and/or not winding the motor as tight, but it still doesn't fix the basic issue.  The newer motors with the internal governor have gears that spin the gov faster than the drive axle, making it much more effective at keeping the speed in check.  Also, as Gary mentioned, the wheel governors can have problems running through switches with guardrails, just like the Marx "fat wheel" single reduction electric motors... but I'll defer to those who know more about the electrics to post pictures and explanations of that.

I noticed that the 7" tin has been mentioned twice, but no pictures yet... Jason and Mike, I would love to see photos of what you have.  I only have 3 pieces of 7" tin, just enough to make a train for my lone 994 reversing clockwork.

 - James

JamesP

 Gary, if I am remembering right, aren't you are building a 7.5" gauge steamer?     ..

i will admit i'm acting more as the general contractor, but yes, i'm working on getting a Jim Kreider design, 1½" scale Berkshire on the rails optimistically by late 2013.  just passed the first major milestone of running on air with quite a bit of work already done on the boiler, so thing are progressing well.

as an operator, i might consider us both as enthusiastic, but i've seen your "project" locomotives, James, and hands down you win on that basis.  ....of course if i ever get a backyard, watch out!

one project i keep pushing back is getting a large photo booth constructed so i can get a good solid background for some complete train shots, but it seems like whenever i get a space cleared out, some other project creeps into the 'picture' and claims the real estate.  i will try to get a picture of at least the components to that M10000.  you can probably tell by the condition of the motor that the train is in fantastic condition.

for now, how about a few boxtops, the first being that early M10000...

early M10000 box - red clockwork set

this is one of my favorite Marx graphics taking advantage of both the newly introduced M10000 alongside a Commodore Vanderbilt. with just a touch of artistic license.  certainly a bit more detailed than the followup...

M10005 set box - green/ cream clockwork set

which contained a later, but still prewar, M10005 clockwork set.  i wonder who retired from their art department?  unfortunately, postwar saw a lot less graphic detail on Marx box tops, though once in a while, a classic would pop-up.

7350 Cape Canaveral Missile Express Train

i have very little plastic Marx, but growing up at the start of the space age, this set appealed to me.  if someone doesn't beat me to the punch, i'll photo and post pictures of the train soon.  i have the 4-wheel, diesel powered version, but the set also came with 8-wheel cars and alternately with a standard #490 locomotive coupled to a special "Missile Express" red tender.

some early Marx boxes did take a dual role resembling a factory or warehouse that could be placed right on the layout, but that's a story for another time.

cheers...gary

Gary, congratulations on getting the Berk chassis running on air... it is certainly a major milestone, and I always breathe a sigh of relief at that point!  It takes a lot of effort & resources just to see the drivers make the first revolution by themselves. 

Neat boxes, Marx had some wonderful artwork in the early years.  I don't have many boxes in my collection, so I always enjoy seeing pictures of them.

Now to continue on with Clockwork CV's - I hope all of you Marx fans find this somewhat interesting, I'll try to keep this as brief as possible...

Sometime in 1938 or '39, Marx simplified the body for the clockwork Commodore Vanderbilts.  Basically, they went from two domes to just one and left off the handrails.  This is a bit more involved than just leaving stuff off an existing locomotive; it used a different stamping for the CV body that doesn't have the mounting holes for the handrails or 2nd dome.  The first artwork I have seen depicting the plain body is in the 1939 Ward's catalog on p. 73.  The change to the plain body happened at or about the same time as the change from 10 spoke diecast drivers to the 7 spoke stamped drivers.  As a side note, Marx changed from the screw-in key to the square key before going to the plain body CV.  At any rate, here are three types of pre-war windup CV's with the plain body:

On the left is the bottom of the line mechanical CV w/ ringing bell & sparking motor, next is a plain body w/ reversing windup motor, and finally on the right is a whistling windup CV.  Reversing windup CV's were available from 1936 to 1940; I haven't seen any evidence that they were produced after '40, although Marx made other reversing clockwork locomotives postwar.  The only advertisement for a windup whistling CV I have seen is in the 1942 Sears Christmas catalog p. 86.  Marx offered clockwork whistling Mercury's postwar, but they use a slightly different mechanism.

There are a couple of details to point out between the regular and reversing clockwork CV's:

The regular CV on the left has an open stack so the sparks can shoot out, while the reversing CV on the right has a closed stack.  Earlier reversers may have used the open stack; the closed stack isn't depicted in period advertising until '40.  Also, the regular CV's brake lever is straight, while the reversing CV's brake lever is bent over - I assume the bent lever makes it easier to shift from forward to reverse. 

I'll probably make one more post about the windup postwar CV's later in the week, and that will cover the major mechanical CV variations.  While I am obviously preoccupied with the windups, I look forward to seeing & learning more from you guys about the rest of Marx's trains!

 - James

On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads "O and S gauge for the operator and collector". So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? I'd love to see a full article about Marx, or even just something in the Collectable Classics section. I've noticed that they have also been recycling pictures from old articles in the Photo Album section of the magazine, so I plan to set up some trains and send in a picture of it.

Aside from 6 inch, I have recently gotten into collecting 3/16 scale. I don't have much, but enough to take a picture of.

I'm sure someone else will top this in an instant though. My favorite part about 3/16 scale is that they are very realistic, and still lithographed tin. Plus, there is only a handful of cars, and very few are hard to come by, so I can say I have a complete collection of it with little money spent.

I have one thing say about single reduction motors: . I have to have a separate layout to run my Marx trains on, because they won't run through the Lionel switches on my Lionel layout. I do have one loop without switches on the Lionel layout, but Marx trains look lost amongst massive Lionel accessories and they disappear when passed by a string of larger O gauge freight cars. Good thing 027 track fits almost anywhere, I set up a small layout on my old kitchen table.

Here's both my layouts in operation

Marx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcx1CZmLchM&feature=plcp

Lionel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFZ4-Ks3f7Y&feature=plcp

Trevor

tjl0824

On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads "O and S gauge for the operator and collector". So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? ...

Trevor, you need to give this string a chance.  the prewar Flyer post is up to about 70 pages while this Marx topic is barely getting started.  i have a feeling that before long you will pick up more information here than can ever be garnered from a single author article.

3/16" scale Marx is a great niche to collect because as you state, there aren't very many different types and none are exceptionally rare.

Marx B-type truck (left) and D-type truck (right) coupler height comparison.

one thing to watch for if you are collecting these cars is that most were offered with not only the scale B-type truck, but also what is commonly known as 'high' or D-type trucks.  they can couple, but the cars mounted on D trucks ride noticeably about ¼" higher.

for a little more variety than just being pulled by the usual #999 and wedge tender, these high truck cars were used in the B&O & SP diesel sets for a better appearance.  it is clearly evident that Marx researched their graphics and numbers.

there are a few ways you can get around the single reduction motor problem.  most #999s have that motor, but not all...

Marx #999 w/ double reduction motor

this late version of the Marx #999 was not found in 3/16" scale sets, but it will negotiate contemporary track switches and crossovers.  this locomotive can be recognized by the distinctive Marx logo on the cab rather than its usual place on the side of the smoke box.

an even more practical solution to your layout problem (the double reduction #999 not being very common) would be to substitute a Marx #333 to head up your scale consist.  all #333 motors inherently have the double reduction gearing and look perfectly reasonable in front of the same (951) wedge tender.

and as i mentioned earlier in this post, many Marx motors are virtually interchangeable so for operations, i  typically remove and save the original motor but have a number of double reduction spares from later models that i can swap into M10005 bodies to also give them the ability to run on modern track.

fun stuff!  cheers...gary

Well, I think I've discovered the first problem with this thread... Trevor and Gary's posts have convinced me that I need to find a Marx 3/16" scale tank car to go with my Dad's set!  Ya'll are going to cost me some money, aren't you? 

 - James

The fact that Marx only had a few different designs for motors is something I definitely take advantage of. Since the 400 and 490 are extremely common engines, and feature the double reduction motors, they can be bought cheap for parts, especially the ones with broken shells. The best use I find for them is putting those motors into wind-up engines with busted coils. That way, both are cheap because no one wants to pay a lot for an engine with a broken shell, or a wind-up engine that doesn't wind up.

When I come across the 3/16 scale cars with D-trucks, it's usually a set headed by Santa Fe 21's or plastic F-7 diesels. In my opinion, cars with D-trucks aren't really 3/16 scale even though the bodies are, because the trucks appear to be half the height of the car. I'm still trying to hunt down a 333 with the gray NYC passenger cars.

overlandflyer

an even more practical solution to your layout problem (the double reduction #999 not being very common) would be to substitute a Marx #333 to head up your scale consist.  all #333 motors inherently have the double reduction gearing and look perfectly reasonable in front of the same (951) wedge tender.

What's wrong with using the die-cast 3991 tenders that came with the engines?

Excellent Work!

What a great thread!  Thanks for starting it and thanks to all of the folks who are contributing to it.  What I know about Marx trains would fit in something smaller than a 6" box car.   I am looking forward to learning from this thread and from the folks who are posting.  I appreciate learning about other manufacturers in this great hobby that we share. I have a feeling I will be asking questions here, and as someone else said I think this thread may cause me to dig into my train fund for something other than American Flyer trains.

Please keep up the good work and keep those photos, stories and videos coming.  This thread is one that I check first each time that I log on!

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

tjl0824

What's wrong with using the die-cast 3991 tenders that came with the engines?

i do have an issue with the diecast tender, but with that comment, i was just considering that you already had the (951) tender and the #333 loco is often up for sale as a single piece.  the (3991) diecast tender is (at least from the two examples i have) a dog, however.  it is an overly heavy tender sitting on just about the worst wheel-axle-journal design of all Marx creations.  about ½ of the #333's power is used merely hauling this tender around.

you're right that i should have mentioned the #21 Santa Fe diesels as also pulling D-truck scale cars as well as the #666 loco which, since it sits slightly higher, was often coupled to wedge tenders sporting D-trucks, also.

i'm not much of a Marx plastic fan, and i know there are also various plastic cars with D-trucks, but i'll leave that for comment by someone more knowledgeable.

http://www.wishbookweb.com/

http://www.wishbookweb.com/1952_Sears_Christmas/pages/1952%20Sears%20Christmas%20book%20page270.htm

the Wishbook site is a great Marx reference site!

cheers...gary

I wonder why this Marx 3000 steam locomotive is paired with a NYC.  The colours and overall appearance are more or less identical to the F-1a and F-2a 4-4-4 "Jubilee" locomotives which were once operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway.  I have a Marx locomotive of an identical shape, and although I got it with the inevitiable NYC tender, I believe it was originally sold as part of a British outfit, as I have seen pictures of it paired with red and yellow UK-outline passenger carriages, which I also have.  The locomotive I have, though, came to me at Christmas, 2006, and included the Rock Island gondola shown in overlandflyer's outfit, along with a stock car and, yes, the inevitable red NYC conductor's "van," as we call them here in Canada, on the end of the train.

Here are some prototype pictures of the CPR "Jubilees:

 http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/jubilee.htm